Nitrogen. Is it worth it? - Engraving Etc. Forum

<body> <h1>Full Version: <a href="https://www.engravingetc.org:443/archive/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.8">Nitrogen. Is it worth it?</a></h1><a name="a5674_8"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.8">#8</a>]<br /> 8 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.7">#7</a>] 8 Jan 2007</p> <p>One breath of pure nitrogen may make you exhale fast but will not have any detrimental effects. It will just exclude the normal oxygen. It is less dangerous than holding your breath, as long as you gan get to normal air within the time length that you can hold a breath for.</p> <p>Look at people who inhale pure helium or pure hydrogen to make them talk funny. (Just do not exhale pure hydrogen near a flame.) >.<</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_9"></a><p><b>From: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.9">#9</a>]<br /> 8 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.8">#8</a>] 8 Jan 2007</p> <p>Harvey</p> <p>I have worked in chemical plants for several years and we've looked at several incidents with nitrogen..including fatalities.</p> <p>We need to understand what makes us breathe..</p> <p>Breathing is stimulated and controlled by carbon dioxide (CO2) present in the lungs. As the CO2 level increases, the brain sends a message to increase respiration. When the CO2 level drops, the rate of respiration will also decrease in order to maintain the proper balance.</p> <p>One deep breath of 100% N2 will be fatal. 100% N2 will displace CO2 and O2 completely. And, in the absence of a CO2 signal to the brain, the stimulus to breathe no longer exists! You will stop breathing!!<br /> You will die without knowing it...it's a very painless death!!</p><hr /><a name="a5674_10"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.10">#10</a>]<br /> 8 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.9">#9</a>] 8 Jan 2007</p> <p>Then I should be dead a few times over. I have been around a few accidents with heliarc welders that use nitrogen in copious quantities, and with burst nitrogen hoses from being in the wrong place at the wrong time, (The hoses that is.)</p> <p>There is no way to replace all of the carbon dioxide in the blood instantly. Even if that were true, the body rapidly keeps burning the oxygen left and producing it. Maybe a few minutes is fatal but not one breath.</p> <p>The only thing that comes to mind is a good whiff of cyanide. If you are still alive when you get to the hospital they can cure you. Before I went to Cook Labs, one of the operators got really sick from a whiff of it, rushed to the hospital and was then in pretty good shape. Cannot remember the fix for that offhand but remember that is is an old chemical/drug that has a few uses.</p><p class="edit_text">EDITED: 8 Jan 2007 by HARVEY-ONLY</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_11"></a><p><b>From: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.11">#11</a>]<br /> 8 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.10">#10</a>] 8 Jan 2007</p> <p>We are not talking here of nitrogen in open atm....as with your burst N2 hose...Remember it's not toxic, it's colorless, orderless and undetected by human senses.</p> <p>If it is conc enough to significantly displace the O2/CO2 levels in your blood you do not get the URGE to breathe....in secs your brain cells begin to die for lack of O2 but it's all very painless. You dont get that uncomfortable feeling as when you hold your breath.</p> <p>Do a google on "hazards of nitrogen"</p><hr /><a name="a5674_12"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.12">#12</a>]<br /> 8 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.11">#11</a>] 8 Jan 2007</p> <p>I guess we agree to disagree. I also have found some of the most unscientific explanations and opinions stated as absolute fact on the Internet.</p> <p>I find NASA as a good source of real science. (Not pertaining to this subject.) I am really careful about Internet information. Even some government scientific releases are dead wrong, or only pertain to extremely specific circumstances, that are not reported.</p> <p>Remember when scientific medical research proved absolutely that garlic had no bearing on heart problems? For centuries people wore necklaces of garlic and swore it helped live a long life. Then there was a second research project that proved that garlic did indeed have a helpful effect. One minor difference in the two research projects. The first one used dried garlic, the second used fresh garlic. It was the aromatics in the garlic that did the work. Never believe a research report unless you study the methods intensely. Geez, this is not aimed at you even though it looks like it.</p> <p>Off my general soapbox now...</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_13"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.13">#13</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: alex (ALEXJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.11">#11</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> I think the difference between what you are talking about and what Harvey is talking about is length of exposure. Any concious person would most likely be fine as long as they stayed concious....once that stopped you would basicly die within minutes for lack of O2. I think that the real risk is how long it would take to get out of the full nitrogen environment if you even realised that it was a hazzard.<br /> <br /> Bottom line is that you need O2 to survive. If the normal atmospheric air is displaced by a gas that does not include O2 you <b>Could/Will</b> die. I think what Harvey is suggesting is that it is very unlikely that a room would fill entirely with Nitrogen, creating this hazzardous environment. What's more likely is that you would get a diluted amount, or limited exposure. I know people that dive shipwrecks that use a nitrogen/O2 blend for deep diving. I know you can breathe nitrogen gas without harm to your person as long as there is a blend of O2 with it....The likelyhood of getting 100% nitrogen in one breath is very low.....Your body makes CO2 no matter if you have nitrogen or O2 in your lungs. If as you suggest....this buildup of CO2 is what is required to trigger the breathing reflex....you would still have a buildup of CO2 happening as your lungs transfer the CO2 to whatever atmosphere is in your lungs. If the nitrogen stifled the breathing reflex on it's own, how could divers use it in a blend for diving without having to conciously remind themselves to breathe?<br /> <br /> Have a look at the MSDS on this gas. It has a health hazzard of 1....The major hazzard shown is explosion of the container. This hazard rating is very low in comparison to many chemicals that people would use for cleaning around the house. I am not dismissing the safe handling of this material, but the reality is that it just isn't a very dangerous material to work with when typical safety precautions are followed as stated by the MSDS. There has to be good ventilation, and I would shut the bottle off when not running a job, just as you would when working with welding or sheilding gasses. <br /> <br /> <a href="https://www.mathesontrigas.com/pdfs/msds/MAT16625.pdf">https://www.mathesontrigas.com/pdfs/msds/MAT16625.pdf</a><br /> <br /> Water can be just as dangerous if misused..... :)<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 9 Jan 2007 by RALLYGUY1</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_14"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.14">#14</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.13">#13</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> Thank you for the link to the MSDS sheet.<br /> <br /> I wonder what genius wrote that one. Skin exposure: Wash with copious water, You are exposed to an 80% mix every second of your life. Same with eyes. And ingestion, a good trick, I guess you might burp.<br /> <br /> One glaring error: Stay out of low spots. It is slightly lighter than air, (O<sub>2</sub> has a molecular weight of 32 per molecule, N<sub>2</sub> of 10 I believe from poor memory, it has a density of .967 from the MSDS sheet.)<br /> <br /> Don't look now, it is all around you but you cannot see it. ;-)<p class="edit_text">EDITED: 9 Jan 2007 by HARVEY-ONLY</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_15"></a><p><b>From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.15">#15</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.14">#14</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> <p>Hahahaha....Yeah no one ever said MSDS sheets were always accurate either.</p> <p>I guess my point was that welding supplies are probably equally or more dangerous than compressed nitrogen gas. </p> <p>Gasses used in the welding process have the same risks for exposure, and the risk of filling an environment with non breatheable material (as in CO2 shield gas). Some have a high flamability rating. (as in acetelene, or straight O2). All of these materials are found in businesses and homes around the country/world.......but the risks are dealt with on a daily basis with the simplest of rules. </p> <p>#1 Chain the tanks up so they can't fall and rupture the tank/valve.<br /> #2 Use in a well ventilated work space.<br /> #3 Turn the tanks off when you are done using them.</p> <p><br /> All of these would apply just the same to compressed nitrogen gas.</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_16"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.16">#16</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.15">#15</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> <p>Those three rules are important. </p> <p>I have seen an oxygen tank fall when being brought in and knocked the valve off. Shot 75 feet across the plant and through a cinder-block wall. Initial rocket pressure was over 6000 pounds through the 1" hole. Than can accelerate the tank fast.</p> <p>Acetylene makes me cringe. It is explosive from 3% with air to 97% with air. It is very heavy and forms puddles. It will self detonate if the tank has more than 400PSI and can self detonate if the pressure at the regulator it is set too high. (That is why acetylene regulators have such a low max setting.)</p> <p>Hydrogen, while it packs more power is so light it will escape through cracks in the ceiling quite easily.</p> <p>Nitrogen is probably the safest compressed gas there is. (Maybe helium also.)</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_17"></a><p><b>From: Jer (DIAMOND)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.17">#17</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.16">#16</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> I work with very large amounts of pure nitrogen on a regular basis, when we purge long runs (miles) of pipeline. Our logic says that nitrogen is everywhere, so no problem. Our safety dept. comes out and informs us one breath of pure nitrogen will cause death. They went through a simular physiological explanation that Alex has. I am not sure I understand it but I don't want to test it. As we vent off the nitrogen, I would think one would have to put ones head right in the full stream of nitrogen in order to get 100% nitrogen because the gas expands so quickly into the atmosphere.<hr /><a name="a5674_18"></a><p><b>From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.18">#18</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Jer (DIAMOND)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.17">#17</a>] 9 Jan 2007</p> <p>I respect that is what you were told by the safety department.</p> <p>I only wonder where they were trained. From all of my chemical training, a bit extensive with the chemicals we used in manufacturing and I was the safety officer and responsible for keeping the hazard sheets up to date and informing the staff of any changes and hazards, I never heard of that. Also it does not make sense, but that does not necessarily have to be a factor in what it really does.</p> <p>The safety officer at CBS when we got in the heliarc equipment said it was totally harmless, especially if we kept the door open. I thought that a slight contradiction at the time. But it could be true, as long as the door was open it could not build up and exclude oxygen.</p> <hr /><a name="a5674_19"></a><p><b>From: Jer (DIAMOND)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.19">#19</a>]<br /> 9 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.18">#18</a>] 10 Jan 2007</p> I believe that in a shop, with what I would consider small amounts in cylinders, that is coming out of a 3/8" hose there is no major risk. This would be a similar set up that would be used in a laser engraver. I also believe what our safety dept. says about one breath of 100% nitrogen. My thought is nitrogen expands so quickly into the atmosphere, that a cylinder in a ventilated shop has little risk. I would guess the bigger risk with a cylinder is pressure and all the precautions need to be observed there also.<hr /><a name="a5674_20"></a><p><b>From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.20">#20</a>]<br /> 10 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Jer (DIAMOND)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.19">#19</a>] 10 Jan 2007</p> Maybe they give the "one breath..." warning because there might be some yahoo working somewhere that thinks "well, inhaling helium gives funny results, I wonder what will happen if I inhale nitrogen from this hose?" <hr /><a name="a5674_21"></a><p><b>From: Jer (DIAMOND)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.21">#21</a>]<br /> 10 Jan 2007<br /><b>To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ)</b> [<a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.20">#20</a>] 10 Jan 2007</p> Oh No! Now I obligated to try it. I have to know.<hr /><p align="center">Show messages:  <a href="lmessages.php?webtag=EE&msg=5674.1">1-7</a>  8-21</p> <h4><a href="lthread_list.php?webtag=EE">Back to thread list</a> | <a href="llogout.php?webtag=EE">Login</a></h4> <h6>© 2026 <a href="http://www.beehiveforum.net/" target="_blank">Project Beehive Forum</a></h6> </body>