Full Version: Millenium Thermal badge machine
From: Myyk [#16]
14 Apr 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#15] 14 Apr 2005
I have tried doming badges printed on inkjet vinyl or Roland color camm, but find it too difficult. Handling was the major headache, with any stroking to remove stubborn bubbles resulting in marks on the ink which seems to be softened by the resin.
My solution is to use the Print n Seal sysyem. Their inkjet vinyl gives sharp lettering and vibrant colours printing from my C80 and after overlaminating is exceptionally easy to handle.
I also use sublimation on silver or gold badges, but never white as the colours and sharpness appear very inferior to the Print n Seal ones.
Formerly, I used OHP film printed in reverse and overlayed with white signwriters vinyl. Looked great, but colours were prone to bleeding over time.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#17]
14 Apr 2005
To: Myyk [#16] 14 Apr 2005
the urethane doming guns should be a little more effective. We never had a bleed problem , but that depends on the epoxy and the substrate - we used inkjet vinyl from the Daito co in Japan on an epson 870
Dunno the print and seal system at all - is there a website?
I dabbled in sublimation , had some success , but currently use a direct to substrate printer now which uses solvent based inks - a marvelous machine.
I think the sub market sucks at present , not the market per se , but all the stuff that ink suppliers are doing - like going after end users using aftermarket sub inks and raising ink prices to gouge type levels.
Most desktop printers use water based inks , for durability and resistance to water and abraision , you need light or full solvent based inks - you can convert a desktop to use these , but its a mission.
Regards
Rodney
From: Myyk [#18]
14 Apr 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#17] 15 Apr 2005
The Epson C80 I use has the "durabrite" archival inks. Interestingly enough, I have tried using my Canon S530D which gives even brighter colours, but ink bleeding was a major problem!
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
15 Apr 2005
To: cindy (ROBERTM) [#14] 15 Apr 2005
Cindy,
I am sure that the manufacturers of the badge printing systems are marketing to our end user, as are laser manufacturers, computerized mechanical engraving companies, etc. It is usually the volume users that end up buying the equipment and doing it in-house. Unfortunately, those are our best customers, leaving the smaller orders to us.
I produced all of our school district name badges. This year, for security reasons, they required staff and volunteers to have a photo badge. To make a long story short, it was more cost-effective and convenient for them to do this in house. I hated to lose this business, but I like the fact that they are being good stewards of our tax dollars. This was a sound financial decision.
I don't disagree with the manufacturer's practice of selling to the high-volume end users. After all, someone is going to sell equipment to this market, they all may as well throw their hat in the ring.
There is plenty of business to go around.
EDITED: 15 Apr 2005 by DATAKES
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#15] 15 Apr 2005
I got some of the inkjet photo glossy film, white polyester with adhesive on back, from http://www.papilio.com/. (Got the link from Rodney in a previous thread.) Part PGF8511.(PGF= Photo Glossy Film, 8511=8.5"x11")
I'm printing to it using my HP officejet 7140, then doming. I'm using the UV resin sold by Ultradome and CGS, #7155 & #7156 www.deco-coat.com.
The rigid epoxy does not adhere very well. The flexible one seems to work OK. If you try to see how much you can bend the flexible dome, try folding it, the film will wrinkle. If kept submersed under water the dome will loose its grip, working its way in from the edges. (Not typical use.)
On the first pieces I domed, I saw a faint 'haze' showing the path I used to apply the epoxy. Testing showed this was due to the ink not being fully cured. Use heat and/or more time.
From: trophyman (MIKEBERGER) [#21]
15 Apr 2005
To: cindy (ROBERTM) [#14] 15 Apr 2005
Yes.
Most of the school systems and the larger customers are also going IN-HOUSE here. Our customers have become the smaller groups, (i.e. Bars, Hotels, etc.) We also use it to make full color inserts medalions for trophies. The card can be cut fairly well using the die cutting equipment that we have for our button making.
Mike Berger
From: Peter [#22]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#15] 15 Apr 2005
Rodney,
Thanks again for your input.
With plain inkjet prints, either on adhesive white or clear ( paper?) vinyl.
have you ever experienced delamination after doming ?
i.e. after the badges cure, the epoxy or UV cure resein curling up and pulling the paper or vinyl off the rowmark/IPI plastic substrate?
and How durable do you find the badges, with a paper/vinyl layer over the plastic substrate, have you ever experienced the badges being put thru the wash and water seeping between the paper/ vinyl image and the substrate, delaminating or ruining the ink ?
regards
Peter
From: Peter [#23]
15 Apr 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20] 15 Apr 2005
What are the vinyls recommended for print / badge/ plaque manufacture from Papillo ?
regards
Peter
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#24]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#23] 15 Apr 2005
"What are the vinyls recommended for print / badge/ plaque manufacture from Papillo ? "
Peter,
I don't know. Call them: 817-489-5249. I'm currently not pursuing badges or plaques so I can't comment to that application. After speaking with their technical person, I requested a sample of PGA and PGF. I have not tested the PGA yet. (it's paper based.)
Based on my preliminary testing, with the free sample, I'm planning on ordering some PGF to continue my testing.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#25]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#22] 15 Apr 2005
Peter,
I have a test item with the rigid UV epoxy on LaserMax, a 1"x1.5" oval; it's holding up OK so far. When I used a 3" oval I was able to flex it to separate the rigid epoxy. The flexible UV epoxy is working with the larger piece. I have not put them in the washing machine.
I found that if the flexible UV epoxy is applied to a non rigid material, "paper", it must be kept flat for a period of time after removal from the UV source or the edges will raise up a little. I've tried two thing that have worked. Putting a piece of glass on top with a small weight; keeping it stuck down with spray adhesive - look at the video at www.ultradome.com. After that "cooling off period", I have not seen any problems; I have not tried to recreate it either.
If you're applying a "label" to the substrate before doming, I'd suggest having the dome extend beyond the edge of the label. Also do your own testing with the dome on the substrate and the dome on the label.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#26]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#22] 15 Apr 2005
Ken mentioned the solution , dome the substrate and label , not just the label.
domes are pretty durable , they stick to most stuff well. We generally use hard substrates but have has no problems with plastics etc
I still have lots of stuff I did that way and it all still looks very good
We dome a lot of stuff , keytags etc , stuff that gets heay use and have never had a comeback
From: Peter [#27]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#26] 16 Apr 2005
Thanks Ken and Rodney,
We have been using avery paper and clear for some time, we adhere the "Label" ( badge face) to a substrate .Rowmark laser max or other rowmark material, we get rejects or defective, ( read delamination) on an irregular basis.. ( same clear/ paper batch).
We clean the plastic with alcohol, leave it to dry, place our sheet of clear or printed paper onto the plastic , squeege , chop it , and dome.
When they come out of the UV , some have delaminated..Once again..not every time, however, on an irregular basis.. we use the rc15 UV clear exclusively.
We have tried basically every brand of adhesive printable laser and inkjet clear and paper available to us, but I have never heard or seen of the product you mentioned previously.
Having said that, we havent any complaints from our client base..However, if they are delaminating for us, at what point are they for the client ? I suppose I worry in advance, because the system isnt a proprietry, sublimated, direct onto substrate high cost system.
On another note, to produce I.D. badges and effective full colour badges , direct onto substrate, that will be very servicable ( read washable and not delaminatble, thru general use and abuse) one would have to go the sublimation and or Thermal print machine route ?
Thanks for all your help guys
Kindest regards
Peter
From: Peter [#28]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#27] 15 Apr 2005
Furthermore,
We have been doing in house testing for some time, Sprayadhese prior to laying the clear plastic or paper labels down onto the rowmark.
Once again, we only did this after we had delamination with certain runs of clear or paper labels.
How would you spread the doming resin past the edge of the label/ badge? Doesnt the resin rely on surface tension to hold to the edges of the badge ? i.e wouldnt it just continue to run everywhere?
We dome individual badges then place them under UV light.
We have never had a dome come off of a plastic/ metal badge.
the only problem is the doming that has combined with the clear vinyl/ paper, delaminating from the Plastic .
regards
Peter
From: Peter [#29]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#28] 15 Apr 2005
I keep chipping in here , however.
Back to where I began. There areseveral fast food chains around that have badges with full colour logos background colours and names here, that look very very sharp, only with what appears to be a glossy surface.
Not a thick laminate coat, but as if the image etc is infused into the plastic.
Given I have seen a number of sublimation jobs, it " cant possibly be sublimation" ( or could it ), but they arent silk screened, full solid orange with a solid blue and a graded grey etc, no fuzziness.
The names arent engraved, but are part of the whole badge, like the image or a sublimated image.
The thing is, if it is one of those thermal print machines...How do they make the volume for these Fast food joints and how do they meet the prices, whilst maintaining a decent profit margin ? The consumables in a Millenium are prohibitive, with the blank costs, clips etc, not to mention its ability to only print 55 mm ( 2" or so) height in one pass 85 mm width
(3 &1/2 " approx) at one time. and the time to print them .
regards
Peter
From: Peter [#30]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#29] 15 Apr 2005
Guys ,
Forgive my "Dumbness" here, most of my previous posts here were done around the wee early hours of the morning..and the brain was kind of fogged out and not receiving messages the way they should have been...
Ken, when you said, "extend the dome liquid past the edge of the label" were you saying make the label slightly smaller than the plastic it sits on and let the dome liquid flow to the edges ?
regards
Peter
From: Myyk [#31]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#30] 15 Apr 2005
I would prefer to use a thicker backing material, but have not been able to obtain supplies locally. Customers don't seem to mind that the badges have a bright gold or silver border. I have tried using brass for greater strength, but feel that the resulting badges are too heavy
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#32]
16 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#30] 16 Apr 2005
Are you using clear Avery labels? - Note to laser people here. If they don't say acid free, they have Vinyl.
An alternative badge idea - I wouldn't mind hearing why it wouldn't work. Print on paper using inkjet printer, cut then laminate. (No doming, no substrate.)
Extending epoxy beyond the edge, here are two suggestions:
#1) Yes, if putting label on a substrate, make the label smaller and dome to the substrate's edge.
#2) Encase the label in the epoxy. I've done the following:
1) print the labels.
2) Kiss cut the label to the "inner" dimension. Cut through backing to the final 'outer' dimension.
3) Remove the boarder, between inner and outer, from the backing.
4) Spray temporary adhesive on a glass plate, and apply labels with backing.
5) Dome to edge of backing.
6) Remove dome/label from backing.
7) flip (apply content to be viewed from back)
8) Dome to edge of dome, on 2nd side.
(I've done a test with the flexible epoxy, I'm currently testing with the rigid.)
In other words:
When doming the first side the label backing paper acts as the substrate. When doing the second side the first side's dome is the substrate.
From: Peter [#33]
14 May 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#32] 14 May 2005
any more feedback ?
regards
Peter
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#34]
14 May 2005
To: Peter [#33] 15 May 2005
I preferred encasing it in the hard epoxy over the flexible.
1) when the flexible product is flexed the layers will bend to a different radius. This can degrade quality when flexed to extremes.
2) The flexible epoxy will develop a curve when heated (cured) if not kept flat. Do not remove from the temporary adhesive on the glass until its cooled. If it gets a curve when doing the backside, put between pieces of glass while it cools. (Under a small weight if necessary.)
What are your findings?
From: Peter [#35]
15 May 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#34] 15 May 2005
Have only ever used flexible epoxy
regards
Peter