Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#56]
17 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I drive the Pa & then the NJ turnpikes every day that I go to work. I pay big time tolls. The turpike trip is 77 miles one way and takes me 1hr and 10 min. I could take free roads. Same mileage (approx) but travel time is 2 hours. I'll pay and take the turnpikes.
When I have an engraving question I can do a lot of research and experimentation (and certainly make some wrong turns) or I can log on here and possibly "speak" to someone who has been there and done that. I'll pay the toll.
Dee
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#57]
17 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#55] 18 Jul 2005
You said....
Again I would disagree. I think that stating the "intention" or the "plan" or the "possible" additional services and offerings is necessary. Yes some of them might not work out. So what if they don't? It is still all in the planning stage. Some will work, some won't, but again I think that it is important to let people know the broad scope of the vision.
It has always been apparent to me that the motives behind this are altruistic..and if you search any threads regarding this with MY name you will find that I am very much in favor of covering the costs...and if someone makes a bit of a profit so what? No big deal in "my" opinion.....
BUT....
..... I think that sharing the vision will ultimately make the "pay pill" easier to swallow for those that are on the fence. I also believe that it will open a discussion about features that may not have been thought of. David L indicated I should suggest away. I am still too new to know what would be of value, but I do know that sharing and discussion of ideas spawn new ideas and solutions. You of all people as an engineer should know that to be true. That is why I firmly believe holding the "proposed benefits" close to the chest is a mistake.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#58]
18 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46] 18 Jul 2005
The free trial is for new member growth, not existing membership. I am not criticizing your choice to go pay....just expressing curiocity in how it will shake out. I tend to see both sides. I guess much of it depends on your goals. If your goals are to make a living off of this forum...I think both the membership and you will be dissapointed. If your goal is to cover costs....then $75 annual fee for each member is far to high a price to pay if everyone is honest with each other.
The magic in the bottle for both this forum and DSSI is the participation of the membership....not the management of it. Lose the membership base and you lose the magic. My personal opinoin is that if you want forum growth you must continue to invite forum participation. How you do that is anyone's guess. One way would be to sell advertising, and let that pay for advertising of the forum itself in trade mags. If you can't find any advertisers interested based on membership participation, I don't expect you will be able to hold the memberships interest in going pay either. In other words...if you can't give the vendors any reasons to pay, you will be hard pressed to get the members to do so. If you can get vendors to pay...it just might be enough to help continue to draw new membership and keep the "magic".
The fear I would have is that the 10% or 90 active members would eventually get tired of sharing the same information with each other. You need a forumula for growth to keep things fresh enough to keep the old coming back day after day, and the new interested enough to sign up.
From: Michael [#59]
18 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#48] 18 Jul 2005
I never said or implied I miss or ignore profitable work to read or post messages on this forum or any other. >.<
I have stated and implied in other threads and this one that I come here to learn, to get an occasional chuckle and to interact with the community represented here. :D
If you, as an "ex" accountant can't figure out what 5% of $75 is...well, that makes apparent why you are an ex-accountant. :P
So there are no more misunderstandings : my post was meant only to show how utterly ridiculous it is to toss out random numbers on "worth" of a valuable service such as EE. The worth is completely percieved and any possible contortions of numbers to prove it's financial worth to any member can apply only to that member unless there are verifiable true facts to support the stated "worth".
What's it worth to me? Right now it's worth every minute I spend here, now. Because
It's going to be a long day...finished that last sentence, brewed a fresh cup of tea, got back, and completely lost my train of thought (any one seen the caboose?)
You said, "but I also don't believe anyone should try to disuade someone from continuing in a "Pay to play" forum just so THEY won't lose their free ride." Again, you are trying to put paint on a canvas that isn't there. I never have and never will try to persuade or disuade anyone to leave this forum. (I have highly recomended it to 2 friends with an interest in engraving and one client who needed a service I don't provide.)
Pay for play? No...perhaps because my perception is that I'm already paying by having the phone service that brings the internet to me and having the adsl that rides that phone line and paying the taxes on both, etc, etc, etc. If David pops up and asks for donations, I hope my check is one of the first ones he receives. :-)
On the other hand, if you can provide a spread sheet with verifiable financial details that would offer good evidence that being a member of EE will increase the bottom line (ie spending one hour per week reading posts will save you 2 hours in production time, provide you with 3 new accounts, and increase your profit by 2.64% annually) I'd seriously reconsider my opinion and perception. :O
This forum has become a true community not because the members get financial gain from it, not because the members can take free pot shots at others who disagree with their opinions, not because David is a great guy (I think he is and one proof is the time and effort he puts into EE with no gain). Engraving Etc. has become a real community because it excludes no one. :-)
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#60]
18 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#57] 18 Jul 2005
Chuck,
There are so many things I would find of great value in an industry, educational, and resource member-based website. The forum would be part of that, but having other resources and educational opportunities at my finger tips would be of even greater benefit.
A few examples have been provided, but here are a few I think are within reach.
Provide digital video field trips through factories and member businesses. David is in the process of investing in this video equipment as I write.
Audio and video tutorials. Nothing further needs to be said about the value of this feature.
In-depth articles on a broad variety of topics, not subject to any particular scheduling restrictions.
A database, searchable by vendor, substrate, product, state, etc.
A database, searchable by forum member, service offered and state. What a great feature when an equipment failure puts you in a pinch.
A database or listing of special wording for awards and gifts, indexed by categories such as retirement, wedding, promotion, sponsorship, leadership, etc.
A comprensive collection of artwork layouts for plaques, acrylics, gifts, etc. that are downloadable.
A formal grading system produced annually which lists the top 5 or 10 vendors or service providers in their particular specialty.
The formation of a buying group that would negotiate on behalf of the members. When EE members purchase equipment, products or services from an Engraving Etc. Super Supplier, they would receive benefits such as improved terms, lower minimums, additional discounts, rebates and other special incentives.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. This can become as big as one wants to make it, but it takes the resources of time, money and support staff to do it.
I hope this gives you some more food for thought.
From: Shaddy [#61]
18 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#60] 18 Jul 2005
Could the forum remain free, reading and posting for everyone, but these extra services be pay? Or maybe a hugely reduced fee for a forum only membership?
It could be part of the thing you agree to when you sign up to not freely discuss or reproduce what is on that extended data, articles etc...
I see the other forum sites getting busier if this forum goes pay, why pay for what you can get for free. Right now, it's the users that make this site good, not the mod's, but they often add to the discussions as users, i'm not saying anything negative about the mods, i'm just saying what's positive is the vast amount of knowlege frand experience from the users. So if this forum went pay, I'd just see if I could live for a while just using the others. As new users joined those would flourish, this one would stagnate.
BUT, all those extra features that you just named would be worth something. I don't know if I'd pay a yearly fee unless there was stuff constantly being added. Articles, hints, reviews. People will always be offering their own on those other forums, so the content offered should be a step above, not just a place to get all at once.
I reserve the right to change any and all opinions written in this email ;-)
Shaddy
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#62]
18 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#55] 18 Jul 2005
Harvey,
You said vaporware is to be avoided at all costs. I'm not sure if that's the best approach here.
You even gave an example of something that became 'vaporware' because it was discussed and openly rejected. Wasn't that a better use of resources then fully developing it, then forcing it on the members?
Big corporations are learning that product development works best when customer feedback is included from the start.
A supplier database would be great, but I feel there is still much that needs to be worked out. What type of searches would members actually like to do? I'd love to search for the laserable items made out of recycled materials. Where will the data come from and who will maintain it? How much detail will it contain? Will it have the information from past "where do I find" threads? It would be great to supply the structure and have suppliers maintain their own data, but will they have the motivation/resources to maintain another 'online catalog'? With so many vendors how do you standardize? Different names for the same thing can cause problems. I suspect it will need to be a large relational database.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#63]
18 Jul 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#62] 18 Jul 2005
The test program has been up for months. Guess you missed the thread. A lot of feedback was gathered and most was able to be accommodated within the program.
At the moment only the beginning of the alphabet is inputted, I need more time to complete the entries.
To see it, just click on this link. http://accentonengraving.com/suppliersearch.php
We will need to also add a definition of the search method.
Any search criteria entered is taken as a phrase. 'laser plaque' will search for only that phrase, not for 'laser' and 'plaque'. When you use more search criterion's, they are an AND search. Products. 'laser plaque', products 'wood', location 'MD' will give you results only if all are in the result.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#64]
18 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#60] 18 Jul 2005
David,
Thank you for laying out some of the potential features of the pay to play EE.
I think NOW folks that might have been not willing to pay, might since they have a tangible idea of what they could possibly be getting for their money.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65]
18 Jul 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#51] 18 Jul 2005
The Delphi "Sublimation" (formerly DSSI) and "Engravers" (now Engraving Etc.) forums are both ghost towns, with zero, or very few new posts.
Their main purpose is as a back up for the respective forums, not to say people aren't free to use them.
At this point, I wouldn't regard either as a link of interest.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#66]
18 Jul 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#58] 18 Jul 2005
Valid points.
I'm all for the free trial if people can't find a way to ride a free trial out to eternity. That's a software issue that will be investigated.
Thanks for your input.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#67]
18 Jul 2005
To: Shaddy [#61] 18 Jul 2005
Shaddy,
The photographers forum I mentioned earlier has two forums. One is free. One is for "exclusive"(paying) members. Their term, not mine.
The free forum is dead. Questions go unanswered for days at a time - if answered at all.
People will go where they feel most welcome. They'll go where they get prompt responses to their questions.
Like any business or service, people will vote with their wallets. If they can have their needs met for free, wonderful! More power to them.
We make no guarantee that a person's bottom line will increase, as the result of being a forum member.
We can put money-making, time-saving advice in front of people, from now, to the end of time. If that advice is implemented, or not, is incumbent on the individual member and their level of ambition.
EDITED: 18 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: Shaddy [#68]
18 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#67] 18 Jul 2005
OK, but my suggestion was to keep one forum, and keep it free. At least that's what I meant. Then charge to access the other stuff and features. I love the idea of accessing tutorials and videos. And monetary (or maybe free membership) compensation for writing/making those might spur more people to make some. Which would grow your "library" and keep people coming around.
Anyway, just a concern/suggestion
From: UncleSteve [#69]
18 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#55] 18 Jul 2005
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#70]
18 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#69] 18 Jul 2005
From: UncleSteve [#71]
18 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#59] 19 Jul 2005
I am sorry that you mis-read my quote of YOUR message... The 5% was NOT of the $75 but rather the % of messages that YOU said were beneficial to you.
"Reverend Jim, May I have more of the Kool Aid?"
Each person will have their own spreadsheet. THEY are the only ones that can determine what they have learned and of what value in time and/or $$ it has been to them.
I only showed what it would take for someone to "afford" a $75 annual membership... since that was one of the numbers being kicked around. If it was $50 or $60 or even $35.60 (that is ten cents per day for those of you in Rio Linda) the idea behind finding the funds to do something still follows form.
From: UncleSteve [#72]
18 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#70] 18 Jul 2005
The exchange rate varies from state to state and person to person. Some find them worth their weight in signs and others try to microwave them and they become rubber offsets to raise materials closer to the laser....
Now, if you were to use a laser to "engrave" a persons name into it and then serve it up for breakfast with fresh cream cheese and smoked salmon (lox to the initiated), the value really rises. Add a slice of tomato and Vadalia onion and the sky is the limit! ;-)
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#73]
18 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#72] 18 Jul 2005
So, if I am understanding correctly, when/if the site goes pay, we could pay with food? Or foodstamps?
Lemme go toast some bagels
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#74]
18 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#73] 18 Jul 2005
Chuck,
Yes, but in either case, they will need to be laserable.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#75]
18 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#74] 18 Jul 2005
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