Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#126]
7 May 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48] 7 May 2006
As our Most Valuable Newcomer, I truly appreciate your input, here and across the entire forum.
If I hadn't already seen pay forums succeed, I'd be less confident about my decision.
I'm well aware of the drop of membership we'll experience. I have no expectation of how many paying members to expect, in the short term.
Jokingly, I've said, "If we end up with five paying members, we'll build from there." :-)
After all, I've started from scratch, on two occasions. The second time, was less work than the first; and if you consider the new format, the third start; I expect even less work, in building a strong membership.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#127]
7 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 7 May 2006
Many people choose not to enter the fray. It's not surprising you're not seeing the "where do I make my payments" emails I'm receiving privately.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#128]
7 May 2006
To: cardjim (JIMMY) [#64] Unread
Jimmy,
I'm one of the little guys. I don't think you can get smaller than a one-man operation, where wearing all the hats, is a daily occurence.
I don't call myself a "little guy" because I truly believe, that mindset is counter-productive, to becoming a bigger guy.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#129]
7 May 2006
To: sprinter [#66] 7 May 2006
I fully agree that another name should have been used, but I doubt you had much say in the choice of the name.
I suspect there's an element of sibling rivalry at play.
Is that the case? You can be honest; can't you?
You're anonymous.
From: UncleSteve [#130]
7 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#127] 7 May 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#131]
7 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#102] 7 May 2006
Rodney,
I find it interesting that you, who emphatically states, the (commercial) awards and engraving industry holds no allure and that EE.org holds virtually no value to you personally, would be at the head of the charge against the new format.
In case you hadn't seen my previous post, adressing people who feel their contributions are being hijacked, as grist for the new format, I can delete all of your posts, with a single click of a button.
I'll do so, at your command, and for those who share your sentiments.
EDITED: 7 May 2006 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#132]
7 May 2006
To: Zelmon [#107] 8 May 2006
Thank you Simon.
I appreciate your perspective from "across the pond" and as a seasoned industry veteran.
My only fear for this thread, is that it will replace the "ARA Las Vegas" thread as the longest-running. :P
EDITED: 7 May 2006 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#133]
7 May 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#110] 8 May 2006
We all have our beliefs.
With or without your presence, we'll continue to proudly carry your link.
All the best,
From: Becky (KIAIJANE) [#134]
7 May 2006
To: ALL
Hello All,
As a 99% leech, 1% contributor, it is safe for me to say that I have received invaluable tips and advice from from this site.
Everyone has always treated me with kindness and answered all of my questions with professionalism and courtesy.
I have been "saved" many a time from this forum.
I was also fortunate enough to meet several forum members at the Beach Party in Las Vegas. It was a fantastic opportunity to pick the brains of some of the leading business people in the industry.
The question of whether or not I would personally pay for this site is about to be a moot issue as my fledgling business is in the process of disintigrating before my very eyes.
I'm not really sure what the point of sharing that opinion in an open forum like this is anyway. I wouldn't hope to influence anyone else's opinion or try to get the moderators to change their minds. People will have to make the decision on their own. Those who realize and need the value of the site will ante up. Those who don't, won't. Simple as that. I am hoping for the sake of all involved, there will be more of the former than the latter.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone (especially the fabulous moderators) for all of the help you have given me for the last 8 months. I will miss the camraderie and humor and friendship I have found here. Please know that my exit has nothing to do with the new structure and everything to do with my current business situation.
I may be back once my own "smoke" clears.
Now, anyone out there in the market for a whole garage full of trophy parts? LOL
Thanks again everyone
good luck in your business.
Becky
EDITED: 7 May 2006 by KIAIJANE
From: Shaddy [#135]
7 May 2006
To: Becky (KIAIJANE) [#134] 7 May 2006
Becky, I think you're missing a good opportunity to get some advice from some good sources. Could be that your chosen area of business isn't pulling the weight, so you need to expand to bring in some more dough. Maybe be more specific on what you're doing, what equipment you have, what area you're located...
Not that I myself can help, but we all like hearing the drastically different advice from the forum members. Post it in a new thread, as I don't read all the posts in this thread.
Shaddy
From: precisionlaser [#136]
7 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#131] 8 May 2006
David,
I had to think a little while to understand why I had such a negative reaction to your reply to Rodney. I have this general feeling (and I am sure you'll disagree with me) that you're shooting yourself in the foot with the defensive and unyielding nature of your replies. Rodney has contributed tons of useful and valuable input and if there's anyone on the forum who I'd think would be exempt from any sort of payment, it would be him. In fact, I think you'd do yourself a great favor and pay people like him who bring such a wide breadth of experience to the forum. Now there's a thought...pay for content. You expect the rest of us to pay for it...it might be a good idea for you to do that as well.
What saddens me is that I see other ways that this could have been handled with largely the same positive result for you. All of us have enjoyed being part of the forum, but now you are unilaterally changing the value proposition and, in my opinion, ignoring the input that your potential customer base is giving you. If I was you, I'd listen, back up and ask for input on how to achieve your goals. You might find better ideas there, retain more of your potential customer base, and avoid ending up as "Admiral of the Rowboat".
For my part, I don't plan on joining the "for pay" site. I do wish you good luck though!
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#137]
7 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#116] 7 May 2006
What a poor choice of wording I used. To me it meant one thing, on re-reading it it can easily mean something else.
I meant and inclusive, not and statement. In real English that means the replacing the 'and' with an 'IF' reads more properly.
Your generous offer will be thought about. It was not a search for someone, but you are making me give it thought. The David's and I will have to see if that is realistic at this moment.
Thanks for the offer, it is greatly appreciated.
From: Upacreek [#138]
7 May 2006
To: ALL
Sheesh, Miss a topic for a few days and spend hours catching up on 133 posts! I'm sure more will come in as I eat dinner and type my response.
There have been a lot of well-thought statements and a lot of heated comments. For those of you posting snarky comments, BEHAVE.
Advertising banners? Sure. No problem. I ignore them all anyway.
Clip art, corporate logos as enticement? Not for me. I design most of my own graphics.
Do I learn from this site? Yes and no. I'm an avid reader. I don't apply most responses to my business needs, but merely store facts learned as "mental notes."
$99/year? Not without full knowledge of what I am paying for. I have the same concerns that many have expressed. We want to know what we will be paying for BEFORE we pay for it.
Deleting people's prior posts from the new pay-only forum? While I fully stand behind any person requesting their posts be deleted if that's what they choose to do, if you do that, you just greatly decreased the value of the forum as a resource.
My suggestions? Leave the forum intact and free or at most $30/year as that is what drives many people to visit this site and contribute information. Offer products such as "How to maintain your <insert equipment here>" articles and supplier databases, file downloads etc as items people must pay for to access.
If the new format proves to do well and people are paying for the optional services as well as use the forum, then offer a "full service" option where they pay $100/year and can download anything they want.
Michel
EDITED: 7 May 2006 by UPACREEK
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#139]
7 May 2006
To: precisionlaser [#136] 7 May 2006
I told Rodney in a post that he would get a free year for his article, once he approved/disapproved the editing of it to format. You saw the slap in the face he gave me.
David's offer to remove his posts were only if Rodney wanted that to happen. Rodney was objecting strongly to his free contributions going on a private site. We were just trying to be courteous and responding to a possible request. Either way on either point, it is entirely Rodney's call. We will do what he wants.
TO ALL:
David was right, I should not have let the cat out of the bag on the logos. I was just trying to show that we were working on improvements. The response has seen posts similar to 'Who needs 700 stinking logos, what else are you going to do for me.' Now I know why I usually give his comments a huge amount of thought.
From: precisionlaser [#140]
7 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#139] 7 May 2006
Harvey,
My point about Rodney was in support of my main point, which was about the approach being taken here and about alternative approaches which I believe would reduce collateral damage. I can't add anything more to my comment, so I won't. It appears that you guys have made up your minds that this is the way it's going to be, so all I can say is good luck.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#141]
7 May 2006
To: precisionlaser [#140] 7 May 2006
Thanks for your wishes of luck.
As far as going private, yes our minds are finally made up. There have been a few threads in the past on the subject that we have analyzed thoroughly to come to the decision. It was a hard set of choices and variations to go through, but we hope we have come to the optimum finalization.
We may be wrong, but will never know unless we do it. Who would have thought of taking nearly two years to get it set to go, and then feeling that we need more time? But we are stagnant as only a forum at this time, yes a great forum, but only that. We feel that we can take it up a few notches, so we are trying to do that.
Thanks also for your participation in the family.
Message 3725.142 was deleted
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#143]
7 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#106] 7 May 2006
Well since I do not know you from Adam, Eve, or Satan himself, I do not really feel that I need to chronologically break down my entire life to you, but for the...YOUR record,
I have been freelancing as a mural and handpainted sign artist since I was 16.
Starting in 1992 I worked as a theatrical technician for the Oklahoma Christian University of Science and Arts where I also began working on a degree in graphic design.
Soon after this I started working for a printing company in Rush Springs Oklahoma where I had my first experience with a large scale screen printing business.
Being young and stupid, I decided I wanted to take off for a year and live in Mexico. This jacked me around and I was forced to quit school all together and get a full time job as a landscape designer/ installer. Like many people, I fell into a rut and this became my career choice until I went through a windshield in October of 1996. Five hours of emergency care and a bad attorney later, I was left with a body that just can't really handle the labor of landscaping any more.
This caused me to make the decision to return back to design school, but this time I went to Arizona. This is where I received my degree in visual communications (covering graphic design, multi-media, digital video, desktop publishing and advertising) which during this time, I was working full time, but continued doing freelance items.
As of 2001 I had my degree and was working on a second degree in animation, when I got hooked up with the wrong person and it led to me dropping out of school, quitting my full time job, and moving to Tennessee where I got screwed over royally and lost everything that I had.
Still with me? After being on the street and doing without, I finally swallowed my pride, contacted my mother and since then have rebuilt my life.
In 2003 I moved back to Texas where I worked for a vinyl sign company and began developing the foundations for the company that I wanted to start.
I met my wife who lived in Oklahoma and when I knew that I wanted to marry her, I thought it was a logical move to go back to Oklahoma since I was getting ready to start my own business, she was already established in hers (teacher with tenure), and I had more connections in Oklahoma.
Since I have been here, I have worked temp jobs and freelance work that has helped me develop my own graphic design company. No longer freelance. I have done everything from business murals 16'x28' down to business suites for a few start up companies.
I have been featured on a radio show that has been archived on their website and I can send you the link should you care to listen to it, as well as I have gotten a lot of free press in two local newspapers in which I can scan copies and email to you should you require to see them.
Because of my bad decisions in the past I am still suffering in some areas like credit history. Only working temp jobs and freelance work does not keep steady paychecks coming in. Anyone who freelances will tell you this. It is my wife's steady paycheck that has allowed me to pursue my business and get it off the ground here in Oklahoma. If it were not for her, I would probably be set up in a dead end job dreaming about a business that would never have happened.
"Since this issue was brought up, I guess I must specify that technically I am doing most of the actual engraving work"
In English class this statement would be called future present, meaning that as soon as I get the engraver, I would be doing most of the work.
I will be more specific with my statements so that there will be no more confusion (at least until this site goes pay and you move to the free site pouting because Rodney almighty wasn't able to get David to change his mind).
Again I state that the engraving part of my company is new. I have been freelancing since I was 16. I have had my own legitimate company for two and a half years. I am getting ready to go from a sole proprietary to an LLC in which case I am putting my wife as an owner in the company out of honor to her because of all she went through supporting me while I was bringing in sporadic paychecks to start this business.
Check out Proverbs 11:2. This is in the Christian bible and is a book in the old testament. I would keep writing, but I think that that one verse sums it up... Now I see everyone that reads this post pulling out there bibles to see what it says :D .
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#144]
7 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#118] 8 May 2006
What I have seen from some pms that were sent to me, that the attitude of some has been projected in this forum for quite awhile. The thing is a lot of people in here get attacked with side comments and they ignore them, I have always had a problem doing that.
IT ALL NARROWS DOWN TO THIS...David is the OWNER, DEVELOPER, and MODERATOR of this site. It is his to do with what he wants. HE has chosen to go pay with this site. HE and the other moderators have stated that this is not an up in the air decision, it is going to happen. Anyone not agreeing with this, there is a free sight that was created and plugged on this thread. Go to it. Realize that your complaints are falling on deaf ears and that there are still people in this forum that are for the pay site which justifies the decision of the moderators. The time that certain individuals have spent complaining and (in a few cases) whining, could have been more productively spent on helping get the free site off the ground.
Making personal attacks and spending time going back to research every post of an individual to validate their importance in this forum is a waste of time and simply boring to the ones who do not care.
I was referred to as a leech in here. There was apparently an indepth study of every post that I have made in here, and then another unsubstantiated alligation made about my posts. My last comment to this (at least on a personal level) is that there is a pm function on this site, if you want to take it personal, then do it in pm. Stop forcing the others to be a part of your self absorbed ego stroking. I can just imagine the the time that you have wasted to analize my posts and critique every sentence to show your intelligence over me because I dared to question your level of tact. I am pleading on behalf of everyone else in here that you are boring to death to just stop or take it to a pm.
From: Upacreek [#145]
7 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#143] 7 May 2006
Behavior like this does not encourage people to look up proverbs spouted from someone that is being argumentative.
I have never met Rodney or any of the other forum members. Rodney could be Sean Connery for all I know and I could be man or woman or teen or retired for all you know. What I do know about people and their character is what I read in the posts.
Rodney has concerns, as well as most everyone else who posts on this forum. Yes, he was being snarky, but I'm confident he will calm down once he's taken a breather. I personally find Rodney's posts to be the most informative and helpful with no motive for personal gain. There are other people who have posted beneficial information too, but not to the extent that Rodney has.
The core group who set up the forum did a great job in setting up & maintaining the forum, but honestly the most value I receive from the forum is not from their responses, but from the community itself. I enjoy looking at some of the photos they have posted regarding their creations, but it doesn't affect my work.
If the forum were converted to "pay to view only", I too would request my responses to be deleted. Sure, I offer plenty of free computer & other advice and help, but it's usually with the knowledge that what goes around comes around and someone may help me some time in the future when I need it.
When I pay to help others, those "others" have a Non-Profit 501c Organization status.
Michel
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