Full Version: Thoughts and Decisions

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#40]
 27 May 2006
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#39] 27 May 2006

Pete,

I've changed the discussion title. We'll see how much of a difference it makes. :-) 

Thanks,

From: bluepaw [#41]
 27 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#40] 28 May 2006

I think you will have to make the decision to go pay or not based on your own gut feelings as to whether or not it will be supported.
At best it will be a calculated risk, but that is the case with any venture.
If you wait for a concensus on this forum I believe you will never do anything.
It is my feeling that you have already decided to go ahead with the pay site and are seeking validation from others. I understand that. It is a scary thing to go it alone.
From what I have gleaned by reading the posts you probably have 80%+ support here. But supporting when you have nothing to lose is fairly easy. Investing ones hard earned money and valuable time is not. When it comes down to it only you can decide.
One thing you might consider if you feel the need is to take a poll to see who supports a pay site and who doesn't. That will at least give you an idea of income you can expect.
I, for one, will support you more than verbally. I will make an initial investment because I believe in what you are trying to do and I believe it will be successful. My track record of personal business success has been pretty good for whatever that is worth.
Bill


From: Debbie (DEBBIEG) [#42]
 28 May 2006
To: ALL

This is my 2¢ worth which I told myself I was not going to post to this subject (wanting to stay out of it) but I think maybe I have a valid point.
David I think your idea for the new site is a great idea. I can see all the possibilities with it. But the problem I think most people have is in the wording of what has transpired and maybe a little of how it is planned out.
I think the first thing people got upset about is taking away something that they liked and knew as is and to now have to pay for it. I think if you would of explained how much out of pocket money you have spent to keep this forum running, I bet people would have donated money to you to take that burden off of you since it is a free forum and we all get something out of it. People would have freely donated to keep it running. But that is not how the original postings transpired and all the commotion happened. But now I think that subject has somewhat been resolved.
The second thing that I think makes some people very upset is the fact that you want to make a profit on this new site. I can completely understand the fact that this new site is going to take money to get off the ground and keep running and that people who supply the site with their expertise knowledge does not come free and will need to be paid for. But if you want to make a profit at it then it is going to be a business for you. People got offended as to why they should pay you so you could make money to have themselves just offer up free advise just like what is currently done. What am thinking and maybe others feel the same way is that when a person wants to start a business to make profit they either use all their personal funds available, go to the bank and get a loan or find investors. The last comment is the one that I think maybe would have made all the difference. Again it all comes down to is wording something to make people want to do something rather than tick them off. If you would have said that you want to start this new business venture where you do not have the moneys to get it off the ground properly and you need investors then you might of got people to want to invest in the new site. At that point you would need to give your investors something for their money (dividends). All others who wanted to join the site would have to pay and then those moneys would then cover cost and help pay for those dividends.

David bottom line is the way you have worded it, it makes you look greedy. A person wanting to make a profit at something is called a businessman/woman. You need to come up with the funds to make that business run or find investors. If you do not get enough funds or investors for those funds then the business gets put on hold. But to just come out and tell everyone here that you are pulling the plug on the free site and wanting everyone to now pay was just not worded correctly and people took offense. Also when comments keep being said about making a profit and you taking time away from your money making business, it kind of backfires. For example if I want to start a new business adventure and it takes me away from my current business and that current business is not making the money it could possibly make that is the chance I take. It is my risk that I take for starting something new. To ask others to take that risk with you when you do not even have anything to really show is asking others to compensate you for the risk that you are willing to take.

I hope that this message is read how it was intended on being read. I wrote it in a calm manor, not trying to be snotty in any way but trying to add a comment that might shed some light on the subject.

Debbie
who is nervous about hitting the send button >.< here goes hitting the button with eyes closed.


From: UncleSteve [#43]
 28 May 2006
To: Debbie (DEBBIEG) [#42] 28 May 2006

Debbie,

Your post is clear and to the point.

What many of the present members don't know or realize is that from the beginning (when many were not here) David was perfectly clear that this would be a "pay to play" forum.

Unfortunately, there was no way to make the original posts sticky so they came up on a regular basis. I think a notice to this effect should be placed on the opening/home screen so others don't assume that it would always be free.

This evolution has been planned for over two years. When David said it was time to move forward, I was the first to send him my $79 to support his move. Not bragging! Just a fact.....

Your suggestion that others would jump in to "invest" or support the forum didn't materialize. Yes, there were a few that showed their support finacially, but for the most part all that happened was members whining/complaining/threatening to leave when it became pay and one member even jumped the gun to start their own forum and advertise it here trying to recruit members before the plan went officially into play.

Did David do it the "smooth" way? Nope! Could he have done it in a "softer" way? Sure! But the bottom line is that for those that have been around for a couple of years, this should have been no surprise.

I know there has been screams of pain at a cost of $7/month but I dare say that ONE tip that has added to a members arsonal of skills or allowed them to offer new/different products would more than pay for a lifetime of new income venues or at least save $$ on production costs which is the same as increasing one's profits.

The special offers from the vendors that are being offered to members only would pay for the forum by themselves..... everything from free shipping to 15% discounts on product. Membership WILL be tracked to ensure that all members and ONLY members will be receiving these discounts from what I understand.

To me it is all in the perspective.... LESS THAN $2 per week! That is less than one cup of Starbucks coffee, one "quality" beer or whatever you would like to relate it to. Even less than ONE GALLON OF GAS!!!!

To take it to the extreme, if you drive 2-3 less miles per WEEK you have saved gas and paid for the forum.

Sorry this is so long but I really believe the forum is a valuable tool and those that leave or can't see the value will not be a great loss as they are primarily the members that are here to take what they can and not be a part of the premium engraving family on the net.

Just my $.04 (A)


From: BrianC (INKSQUIRTER) [#44]
 28 May 2006
To: Debbie (DEBBIEG) [#42] 28 May 2006

Debbie,

quote:
I think the first thing people got upset about is taking away something that they liked and knew as is and to now have to pay for it.


How many of us here would like to rotate every few years to take over running the free forum. Would it be a big deal for me to take on something like that? It's such a big deal, I wouldn't do it. I just wonder how long people are expected to keep something going for other people just because the other people want it.

David's idea of a pay site is NOT new...he's been talking about it for a long time. Maybe this is a poor analogy but you know how it is living in a state where GM was king. Today, people are being asked to basically pay back into the system to keep the companies afloat.

I often wondered why people started forums knowing all the costs were theirs. Seems like a lot of work to me.

My wife and kids have many times thought I was way off base even though I thought I made a lot of sense. Perhaps that's how this post will play out as well.



The golf forum I belong to last year offered premium memberships. You could either pay the fee, and get added benefits, or not pay and no added benefits. I have NO problem with that. It sounds like EE might turn into something along the same lines.

From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#45]
 28 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 28 May 2006

quote:
I guess that $3 per month is above minimum cost for you. To each his own.


Your placing words in my mouth Harvey. I am paying no matter what it comes down to at a minimum to see what all the hubub is about...I've said that in the past. David was asking us to express our feelings about ways to make this transition a good one. I am expressing mine.

What's wrong with EE now? Nothing as far as I can see.....Why must it be all or nothing when the majority of the forum is entirely satisfied with the status quo. My opinion is that change is being forced by a small group of people that want to expand thing....That's just fine, but what about those that arent interested? Tough luck? Why must it be this way?

Could you fathom the possibilty that utopia has already been achieved?

I can....

No one has expressed what will be different yet because of fear that this "idea" may be stolen. Someone has to know what the plans are or it won't go anywhere....

I'm using simple logic here.......

If the idea can't be sold as a good idea to investors, it's highly likely that it isn't a great idea for a business in general. Think about it for a minute before you start calling me cheap....

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46]
 28 May 2006
To: Debbie (DEBBIEG) [#42] 28 May 2006

Debbie,

On the topic of how my words come across in print, it's an unfortunate side of the printed-word format.

Confidence, in the printed-word, can come across as arrogance.

Those who know me personally, can attest to me being a soft-spoken, laid back, introspective person.

I lead a modest lifestyle and prefer to live within my means. To increase those means, through a subscription site, is a desire, but greed isn't a motivator.

I don't blame you, for being reticent to post.

I was reluctant to raise this issue again, since "that previous thread", was such an unpleasant experience, for anyone who followed the exchange.

I got to the point, where those messages were literally the last read. Very uncomfortable.

I intentionally laid low, for a while, in order to restore a sense of normalcy to the forum, weigh the opinions and collect my thoughts.

At the same time, I felt it was necessary to keep the momentum going, for a subscription site.

The concept of a content-based, subscription site, isn't a new one. It just happens to be untried in the A&E industry.

There are very successful pay sites, (some charging hundreds of dollars per month), which rely on collective participation, as we do here.

Some have only a handful of members and are very exclusive, while others, have literally thousands of members, with more joining regularly.

One example would be www.photoworkshop.com a site my wife belongs to, at $99 per year. I should point out that the site's heavily-sponsored, as well. Hasn't slowed down paid memberships.

The one aspect, pay sites hold in common, regardless of their area of endeavor, is information, crucial to the development of expertise and successful businesses, within those fields.

With that in mind, it could easily be said that everyone profits, through belonging to those pay sites.

Are the owners of those sites, profiting more than their members?

It's possible.

It's also possible, that by putting the accumulated knowledge to work, the forum members could outweigh the income of the site owner.

It's all up to the individual and their level of ambition.

I can't think of much more to add, that hasn't been amply covered, in this thread as well as others.

I do appreciate you bringing your thoughts to this topic.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#47]
 28 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#45] 28 May 2006

Brian,

At this point, I can't see any cards that I haven't put on the table.

If the multiple added-value features I've mentioned, leave people cold, there will be no winning them over.

If the prospect of a "near-free" forum, leaves people cold, there will be no way of winning them over.

From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#48]
 29 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#34] 29 May 2006

Brian,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post. I had the fortune of being able to spend a couple days out of town with my family to smell the roses, in more ways than one.

quote:
What makes you feel that the site isn't useful the way it is right now?

I'm the last person you want to ask to keep things status quo. That seems a bit boring and unproductive to me. I'm of the opinion that businesses are either moving forward or backward, but never on an even keel with the competition.

Many here would agree with you that there is nothing wrong with the usefulness of the forum, but that really isn't the issue here. The issue is, can it become more and simply a part of something better for our businesses ultimately? My personal answer to that is yes, yes, yes! :-) 

EDITED: 29 May 2006 by DATAKES


From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#49]
 29 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#48] 30 May 2006

Hi David,

No big deal on getting back....it's a holiday weekend ;) 

......I had a great day. I played several pieces with a 20 piece brass group at a Revolutionary war vet's grave for an honorary service.....

Back to the issue at hand.......

I also believe in always moving forward, but not at the loss of something that's working well... That would be a terrible business decision don't you think?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that the idea of moving forward should be self supportive, not forced on the back of a forum that works extreemely well "as is".

Why burden something successful with the risk of total if not substantial failure. If the idea is that great.....it should support itself.


From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50]
 30 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#49] 30 May 2006

Brian,

I don't think you and David L. are too far off on your opinions of where to go from here. Knowing what he knows now, he also sees the importance of maintaining what we have here. I know it will not be free, but at a very modest subscription rate, I think the privacy and credibility it adds to the forum will far outweigh the nonburdensome fee.

I have conveyed to David in some private e-mails that I believe the website needs to stand on its own. I think he had come to that revelation himself and this is why you are seeing the two-tiered subscription being discussed here.


From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#51]
 30 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50] 30 May 2006

Food for thought..... No disrespect intended.

quote:
There are two kinds of fool.
One says, "This is old, and therefore good."
And one says, "This is new, and therefore better."


B-) 

(Fire Away!)

I should have sent this to ALL rather than directed it David, but I didn't know how to change it after I posted it.

EDITED: 30 May 2006 by CSEWELL


From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#52]
 30 May 2006
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#51] 30 May 2006

Carl,

There is a third kind of fool.

One who sees merit in both of those sentiments. :-) 

From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#53]
 30 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#52] 30 May 2006

quote:
There is a third kind of fool.
One who sees merit in both of those sentiments.


I'm guilty as charged!

And pessimists have been defined as optimists with experience.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#54]
 30 May 2006
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#53] 30 May 2006

:-) 

From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#55]
 30 May 2006
To: ALL

You can't carry on having circular discussions about this , the window of opportunity is gone now.

Here's a plan

Why not just call for donations to help keep this site running as is - lots of us will oblige - I would
Then set up your Educational site as a stand alone and punt the hell out of here
I doubt there is one person who would object to you using this site mostly being the fruit of YOUR labours , to punt a site beneficial to all and that can make you a living and satisfy your need to go further than this site.
When you got something good , offer it and we will bite.
You then have the best of both worlds , an active free partially subsided site and a nice target audience and a hugely better chance of success, win win for all.


From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56]
 30 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#55] 30 May 2006

That is close to the plan at the moment, with one exception.

The virtually free site needs to cover its costs and over a few years pay back the outlay of the site from the past, (I think it is), seven years. The $3 per month will hopefully do that and leave a bit for improvements. (It may take a few years to pay back the financial investment, hopefully not that long.)

When I say payback and cover the costs I include a little more than just the financial investment. A far below minimum wage payment for the time to organize things and keep them that is not an unheard of possibility. Some people will not like this aspect, but very few will labor and allow that labor of love to badly impact their marginal income. Why should David, in my opinion?

This is far from an adversarial post to you, we are in very close agreement at this moment.


From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#57]
 30 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 30 May 2006

Harvey,

I doubt very much that David is looking at it like you portray, although I would be the last person opposed to the concept of reimbursing him for his past out-of-pocket expenses.

David will likely not be pocketing much money any time soon, especially with the investment required for video equipment, programming, etc. I imagine he will be investing plenty of his free time in the effort as well.

EDITED: 30 May 2006 by DATAKES


From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#58]
 30 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#57] 30 May 2006

I know he is resisting payback for outlays strenuously, but I am fighting him continuously. He has laid out thousands of dollars from what I know about and I believe I may wear him down. I do not want him to have an additional excuse for taking nothing in reimbursement. That has been our biggest disagreement so far. I did not plan on saying the above publicly, but at this time you gave me little choice.

From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#59]
 30 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 31 May 2006

Harvey , the donations to the site will defray pressing expenses and the target audience feeding the value add ons or new site will more than compensate for any income lost/cost of maintaining this site.
Write off past costs as the cost of building this site up to feed the new one.


Show messages:  1-19  20-39  40-59  60-79  80-98

Back to thread list | Login

© 2025 Project Beehive Forum