Full Version: Thoughts and Decisions

From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#55]
 30 May 2006
To: ALL

You can't carry on having circular discussions about this , the window of opportunity is gone now.

Here's a plan

Why not just call for donations to help keep this site running as is - lots of us will oblige - I would
Then set up your Educational site as a stand alone and punt the hell out of here
I doubt there is one person who would object to you using this site mostly being the fruit of YOUR labours , to punt a site beneficial to all and that can make you a living and satisfy your need to go further than this site.
When you got something good , offer it and we will bite.
You then have the best of both worlds , an active free partially subsided site and a nice target audience and a hugely better chance of success, win win for all.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56]
 30 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#55] 30 May 2006

That is close to the plan at the moment, with one exception.

The virtually free site needs to cover its costs and over a few years pay back the outlay of the site from the past, (I think it is), seven years. The $3 per month will hopefully do that and leave a bit for improvements. (It may take a few years to pay back the financial investment, hopefully not that long.)

When I say payback and cover the costs I include a little more than just the financial investment. A far below minimum wage payment for the time to organize things and keep them that is not an unheard of possibility. Some people will not like this aspect, but very few will labor and allow that labor of love to badly impact their marginal income. Why should David, in my opinion?

This is far from an adversarial post to you, we are in very close agreement at this moment.

From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#57]
 30 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 30 May 2006

Harvey,

I doubt very much that David is looking at it like you portray, although I would be the last person opposed to the concept of reimbursing him for his past out-of-pocket expenses.

David will likely not be pocketing much money any time soon, especially with the investment required for video equipment, programming, etc. I imagine he will be investing plenty of his free time in the effort as well.

EDITED: 30 May 2006 by DATAKES

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#58]
 30 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#57] 30 May 2006

I know he is resisting payback for outlays strenuously, but I am fighting him continuously. He has laid out thousands of dollars from what I know about and I believe I may wear him down. I do not want him to have an additional excuse for taking nothing in reimbursement. That has been our biggest disagreement so far. I did not plan on saying the above publicly, but at this time you gave me little choice.

From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#59]
 30 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 31 May 2006

Harvey , the donations to the site will defray pressing expenses and the target audience feeding the value add ons or new site will more than compensate for any income lost/cost of maintaining this site.
Write off past costs as the cost of building this site up to feed the new one.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#60]
 31 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#59] 31 May 2006

Rodney,

As Harvey said, we're basically in agreement, with the approach you're suggesting.

The added features are ambitious and will take time (some, more than others) to develop.

Where we're not quite coming together, is on the issue of donations vs. a nominal fee.

EDITED: 31 May 2006 by DGL

From: sprinter [#61]
 31 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#60] 31 May 2006

David,

For your video productions have you looked at Camtasia 3.1? It now has live video from a video camera input. I've been playing with the demo version and was so impressed I ordered the CD version. The full version is $300.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#62]
 31 May 2006
To: sprinter [#61] 31 May 2006

Ken,

I've only recently become aware of some of the technology we can bring to bear, which is incrediby exciting.

My head's exploding with ideas, based on the little bit I know.

I knew of Camtasia, for flash tutorials, but I'll definitely look into the video aspect.

Thanks for the heads up. :-) 

From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#63]
 31 May 2006
To: ALL

quote:
If you would have said that you want to start this new business venture where you do not have the moneys to get it off the ground properly and you need investors then you might of got people to want to invest in the new site. At that point you would need to give your investors something for their money (dividends). All others who wanted to join the site would have to pay and then those moneys would then cover cost and help pay for those dividends.
I'm getting caught up again, and wanted to comment on this. More specifically test the accuracy of my impression.

The investors are the forum members. Instead of a formal business plan where everything is on paper, the forum was set up out of pocket as a limited free sample. Now the sample time is coming to an end; membership fees will be the investment and expanded content the dividends.

Have I been reading the situation incorrectly since I first joined?

P.S. I like the new twist of basic and expanded content levels. Curious how "upgrades" will be handled.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#64]
 31 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#63] 31 May 2006

quote:
P.S. I like the new twist of basic and expanded content levels. Curious how "upgrades" will be handled.


Could you be a little more definitive about what you mean by 'upgrades'? I am a bit unsure about what you specifically mean.

From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#65]
 31 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#64] 31 May 2006

quote:
Could you be a little more definitive about what you mean by 'upgrades'? I am a bit unsure about what you specifically mean.
If someone starts off with basic service then wants to step up to the full offering. Will they pay the prorated difference for the time remaining in the current subscription? If the initial membership was obtained during an initial promotional time period will those prices or the current ones be used? If initial members will have any ongoing benefit will it be available to members at both levels?

The questions above are more for thinking than an immediate answer.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#66]
 31 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#65] 31 May 2006

I'm glad you clarified that. I had a totally different take on what you said. I thought you were referring to the 'upgrades' that would be in the premium site.

I will leave this one for David to answer as to how that will be handled. It may also be software related capabilities. Having this question in advance may help to get it done more flawlessly.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#67]
 31 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#66] 31 May 2006

Harvey,

I'm all for doing whatever it takes to keep things simple.

Even though John Fish is extremely capable, of setting things up whichever way we want, I don't want to present him, or our members, with the equivalent of "Chinese Algebra."

Thinking out loud:

It could be the best approach is to have one membership level (forum, as-is) and make the "Whistles and Bells" web site, a place where people can visit and order "products" as they choose.

From: sprinter [#68]
 31 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#67] 31 May 2006

David,

Most of the features you are talking about are already built into Beehive Forum software.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#69]
 31 May 2006
To: sprinter [#68] 31 May 2006

The question turned out to be about the financial jockeying of someone going from basic to premium.

Basically to be able to use the payment already made and applying it to the now to be discounted, (by virtue of the original subscription), rate for the premium level.

The software will easily take the change in levels, the payment software must be able to take this possibility into account. I see it as a decent percentage of the subscriptions in the future. Try out the forum, then go premium.

From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#70]
 31 May 2006
To: ALL

Donation vs. Fee In "that other thread" it seemed that some were getting resentful and feeling it unfair that their input into this site was given free and now someone else was going to be gaining financially from their information. I would say that some of these same people would probably eventually find themselves complaining again because now they are having to actually pay to give their input while others, who did not give a donation, are gaining from that input for free. A fee across the board for everyone puts everyone on a somewhat level playing field. Fairness isn't an issue. With donations, there is uncertainty. One month may bring in enough to cover expenses and the next month there may be a need to beg for donations. With a set fee there will be no question of money coming in. Donations are fine, but fees are reliable.

From: sprinter [#71]
 31 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#69] 31 May 2006

Receiving the money will be the easy part, the hard part will be keeping the pipeline with fresh premium content. I haven't heard how often new premium content will be added, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly? If you don't have a library of new fresh content it will be difficult to keep members happy.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#72]
 31 May 2006
To: sprinter [#71] 31 May 2006

That is the hard part, if premium or general.

What it means is that we, gasp, may have to work even harder for the money.

New ideas are always tough, just look at the trade mags. Just because it is tough does not mean that we will slack, hopefully. I do not believe that any engraver that is still in business shies away from the difficult. All of us do it all the time. The impossible just takes us a little longer.

From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#73]
 31 May 2006
To: ALL

David , as I have said before , a fee to use the forum is a kiss of death.
The free at first vs Now pay forum thing is a bait and switch tactic which is guaranteed to p==s ppl off - as has been demonstrated.

Give the donors a "donor" wall which acknowledges their contribution and tag them as "donor" in their forum profile . silver/gold/platinum status or something like that. Promise donors a freebie or 2 from your add on site depending on their status , send em something to acknowldege their donation - surely some of the laser mnfgrs/material suppliers can put together a sampler package or some nice useful give aways - good advertising for them too.

From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#74]
 31 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#73] 31 May 2006

quote:
a fee to use the forum is a kiss of death.


Rodney,

What facts are you basing that comment on? You have my attention.

I know you've personally bailed out on a photo forum, which used to be free and recently went to a pay model; does that mean there was a wholesale exodus of the members?

We're proposing $36 per year, which is less than many pay for a single tank of gasoline; less than many pay for a dinner for three, at an inexpensive restaurant; less than one cent per day.

I don't know about others, but one tank of gasoline lasts me about two days. A dinner is gone in less than an hour.

The forum will be here, day after day, week after week, month after month, with an abundance of money-making, time-saving tips, which if applied to a person's business, can only serve to help their bottom line.

It's, in essence, free.

EDITED: 31 May 2006 by DGL

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