Full Version: Nitrogen. Is it worth it?

From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#13]
 9 Jan 2007
To: alex (ALEXJ) [#11] 9 Jan 2007

I think the difference between what you are talking about and what Harvey is talking about is length of exposure. Any concious person would most likely be fine as long as they stayed concious....once that stopped you would basicly die within minutes for lack of O2. I think that the real risk is how long it would take to get out of the full nitrogen environment if you even realised that it was a hazzard.

Bottom line is that you need O2 to survive. If the normal atmospheric air is displaced by a gas that does not include O2 you Could/Will die. I think what Harvey is suggesting is that it is very unlikely that a room would fill entirely with Nitrogen, creating this hazzardous environment. What's more likely is that you would get a diluted amount, or limited exposure. I know people that dive shipwrecks that use a nitrogen/O2 blend for deep diving. I know you can breathe nitrogen gas without harm to your person as long as there is a blend of O2 with it....The likelyhood of getting 100% nitrogen in one breath is very low.....Your body makes CO2 no matter if you have nitrogen or O2 in your lungs. If as you suggest....this buildup of CO2 is what is required to trigger the breathing reflex....you would still have a buildup of CO2 happening as your lungs transfer the CO2 to whatever atmosphere is in your lungs. If the nitrogen stifled the breathing reflex on it's own, how could divers use it in a blend for diving without having to conciously remind themselves to breathe?

Have a look at the MSDS on this gas. It has a health hazzard of 1....The major hazzard shown is explosion of the container. This hazard rating is very low in comparison to many chemicals that people would use for cleaning around the house. I am not dismissing the safe handling of this material, but the reality is that it just isn't a very dangerous material to work with when typical safety precautions are followed as stated by the MSDS. There has to be good ventilation, and I would shut the bottle off when not running a job, just as you would when working with welding or sheilding gasses.

https://www.mathesontrigas.com/pdfs/msds/MAT16625.pdf

Water can be just as dangerous if misused..... :)

EDITED: 9 Jan 2007 by RALLYGUY1

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14]
 9 Jan 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#13] 9 Jan 2007

Thank you for the link to the MSDS sheet.

I wonder what genius wrote that one. Skin exposure: Wash with copious water, You are exposed to an 80% mix every second of your life. Same with eyes. And ingestion, a good trick, I guess you might burp.

One glaring error: Stay out of low spots. It is slightly lighter than air, (O2 has a molecular weight of 32 per molecule, N2 of 10 I believe from poor memory, it has a density of .967 from the MSDS sheet.)

Don't look now, it is all around you but you cannot see it. ;-)

EDITED: 9 Jan 2007 by HARVEY-ONLY

From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#15]
 9 Jan 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14] 9 Jan 2007

Hahahaha....Yeah no one ever said MSDS sheets were always accurate either.

I guess my point was that welding supplies are probably equally or more dangerous than compressed nitrogen gas.

Gasses used in the welding process have the same risks for exposure, and the risk of filling an environment with non breatheable material (as in CO2 shield gas). Some have a high flamability rating. (as in acetelene, or straight O2). All of these materials are found in businesses and homes around the country/world.......but the risks are dealt with on a daily basis with the simplest of rules.

#1 Chain the tanks up so they can't fall and rupture the tank/valve.
#2 Use in a well ventilated work space.
#3 Turn the tanks off when you are done using them.


All of these would apply just the same to compressed nitrogen gas.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#16]
 9 Jan 2007
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#15] 9 Jan 2007

Those three rules are important.

I have seen an oxygen tank fall when being brought in and knocked the valve off. Shot 75 feet across the plant and through a cinder-block wall. Initial rocket pressure was over 6000 pounds through the 1" hole. Than can accelerate the tank fast.

Acetylene makes me cringe. It is explosive from 3% with air to 97% with air. It is very heavy and forms puddles. It will self detonate if the tank has more than 400PSI and can self detonate if the pressure at the regulator it is set too high. (That is why acetylene regulators have such a low max setting.)

Hydrogen, while it packs more power is so light it will escape through cracks in the ceiling quite easily.

Nitrogen is probably the safest compressed gas there is. (Maybe helium also.)

From: Jer (DIAMOND) [#17]
 9 Jan 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#16] 9 Jan 2007

I work with very large amounts of pure nitrogen on a regular basis, when we purge long runs (miles) of pipeline. Our logic says that nitrogen is everywhere, so no problem. Our safety dept. comes out and informs us one breath of pure nitrogen will cause death. They went through a simular physiological explanation that Alex has. I am not sure I understand it but I don't want to test it. As we vent off the nitrogen, I would think one would have to put ones head right in the full stream of nitrogen in order to get 100% nitrogen because the gas expands so quickly into the atmosphere.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18]
 9 Jan 2007
To: Jer (DIAMOND) [#17] 9 Jan 2007

I respect that is what you were told by the safety department.

I only wonder where they were trained. From all of my chemical training, a bit extensive with the chemicals we used in manufacturing and I was the safety officer and responsible for keeping the hazard sheets up to date and informing the staff of any changes and hazards, I never heard of that. Also it does not make sense, but that does not necessarily have to be a factor in what it really does.

The safety officer at CBS when we got in the heliarc equipment said it was totally harmless, especially if we kept the door open. I thought that a slight contradiction at the time. But it could be true, as long as the door was open it could not build up and exclude oxygen.

From: Jer (DIAMOND) [#19]
 9 Jan 2007
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18] 10 Jan 2007

I believe that in a shop, with what I would consider small amounts in cylinders, that is coming out of a 3/8" hose there is no major risk. This would be a similar set up that would be used in a laser engraver. I also believe what our safety dept. says about one breath of 100% nitrogen. My thought is nitrogen expands so quickly into the atmosphere, that a cylinder in a ventilated shop has little risk. I would guess the bigger risk with a cylinder is pressure and all the precautions need to be observed there also.

From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#20]
 10 Jan 2007
To: Jer (DIAMOND) [#19] 10 Jan 2007

Maybe they give the "one breath..." warning because there might be some yahoo working somewhere that thinks "well, inhaling helium gives funny results, I wonder what will happen if I inhale nitrogen from this hose?"

From: Jer (DIAMOND) [#21]
 10 Jan 2007
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#20] 10 Jan 2007

Oh No! Now I obligated to try it. I have to know.

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