Full Version: Pricing Correctly / YAG vs CO2
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1]
18 Mar 2005
To: ALL
I just quoted a laser job, and once again, lost out to someone who I feel way under bid somewhere in New Jersey.
This job required lasering a 8"h x 5" w anodized aluminum plate with cut out areas. Quite a lot of copy in various locations around the plate - typical industrial type plate style.
Client who provided the cut out plates is here in my town, but end use client is somewhere in New Jersey.
Each plate would have required about 10-15 minutes of time to run.
My price was around $13.00 per plate, New Jersey laser person - $3.00 per plate.
Is that price reasonable? Or way under? I personally feel I should just move on to another job for that price on this style of job.
My client located here will be recommending that his client in NJ keep using that laser person until they go out of business.
Cindy
From: scroller (JEFF) [#2]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 18 Mar 2005
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 18 Mar 2005
At that price, how many plates is the order, and is it really being done on a laser?
If it is a small order with a laser, find out the company name so you can buy stuff cheap at their going-out-of-business sale.
From: Shaddy [#4]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 18 Mar 2005
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5]
18 Mar 2005
To: scroller (JEFF) [#2] 18 Mar 2005
The request was for a quote for 100 plates, provided by the client here in my area, but you know how that goes - they get a quote for 100 and bring in 1 piece. So I did a price breakdown and the 100 piece cost was around $13.00 each with $45 min for 1 piece, which is our shop minimum for anything lasered. If he got more than 1, but less than 100 the price was not $13.00.
As I've stated before, going up against this type of pricing when you are bidding just makes me crazy. What can you say?? I said if they could get the quality they were looking for, they should just buy from this other guy until he went out of business because they were definitely cheap.
I have had one or two industrial clients try and get the price down by doing this type of cost comparison, and then you find out later when they order from you that they were not comparing apples to apples and the lower quote could not deliver (or didn't exist). I stick with my prices and don't lower them to match someone else. But how can you not expect a client to go to the other guy when there is such a price difference?
Don't know how long the hobbiest in NJ has been around, but either they are really new and don't know their pricing stuff yet, or they are just hobbiests.
Cindy
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#6]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5] 21 Mar 2005
A Nd YAG galvo laser with a 200 x 200 marking field can do that job in seconds , we are looking into a 50 watt pumped diode laser with a 140mm x 140 mm marking field for high volume production work.
The way these lasers work with flat field lenses and galvo driven mirrors make them extremely quick , up to 300 characters per second. (quoted speeds are around 7 meters a second on some of these machines) I saw a uncoated zippo being engraved directly into the stianless steel with a complex logo almost over the full area of the lighter in under 3 seconds - took longer to put the thing in and take it out than engrave.
Perhaps they had a machine like this or similar?
From: rich (SPYDER62) [#7]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 21 Mar 2005
From: Gary (GLSHOE) [#8]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5] 21 Mar 2005
HI Cindy
It wasn't this guy in New Jersey. I would be in the ballpark of your pricing. My pricing would be around 14.25 per piece. I'm still learning the business, and maybe a novice but I'm not giving anything away. Worked too hard to get the money to have what I have.
Gary
When Spirits Dance
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9]
18 Mar 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#6] 18 Mar 2005
Rodney,
I would agree with your concept about the YAG laser. I just can't see someone with a CO2 missing the price mark by this much.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#10]
18 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 21 Mar 2005
Cindy,
You may want to find someone in your area that has a larger field YAG Laser who may likely do the job for $3 - $3.50. Price the job at $5.00 and give them some food for thought.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11]
19 Mar 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#6] 19 Mar 2005
Rodney,
The YAG machines are definitely quick. A while back, I had a job consisting of 400 wooden sandtimers. Running a logo (about 2" high) on a (Flying Optics) CO2 machine took about 2.5 min. each.
It was during the holiday season and I figured the job would take about 33 hours. Time that I just didn't have.
I farmed the job out to Jimani (under Job Shops in Links section) and they had the job finished within a matter of several (don't know how many) hours.
I dropped by to OK the setup and watched a few pieces being done.
What took 2.5 min. on the CO2, took MAYBE 5 sec. (maybe less) on the YAG (steered beam) system.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
19 Mar 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#10] 19 Mar 2005
David,
The "field" on a YAG system isn't very big. Maybe 5.5 x 5.5 inches.
Don't know if there are larger field machines out there.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#13]
19 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 19 Mar 2005
David,
If memory serves me right (a frightening thought), there are some larger field machines now. Some of them have the moving optics like most C02's, which wouldn't save a person any time on a job, and others have the steered optics that have a slightly larger field. I am sure I will have to do some digging to verify this .
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#14]
19 Mar 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#13] 19 Mar 2005
As the field size increases , the spot size does so too.
Max field sizes are 8"x 8", practically a 140mm or a 100mm field size is as far as you want to go.
Theres a guy here who bought a YAG which works the same as our machines ( xy tables) Waste of time as far as i'm concerned cos there is very little he can do that I can't and the metal marking is not nice and black like when we use cerdec , its a sort of dirty brown.
I do a ton of promotional item branding tho , thats why we are looking into the fibre or pumped diode YAG , sometimes qtys run into the multiple 1000's and its taking way too long on our Co2's.
Probably gonna get a machine from China , they quite reasonable and pretty well made these days , for $25k you get a decent unit. GCC have a Galvo Co2 and YAG in their line up , but theirs are a little too pricey for us - the local importers are adding on hefty margins.
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#15]
19 Mar 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#14] 19 Mar 2005
5X5 inch field sizes are typical for steered beam YAG lasers but 12 X 12 field sizes are available by changing lenses. It is absolutely true that spot size grows as field size grows but the trick is to get a YAG laser with lots of "low order mode" power(something you don't need to know or worry about with CO2 lasers). Not all YAGs are created equal but each manufacturer wantsyou to think that their laser is the best thing since sliced bread. Do your homework before you spend your money.
The guy is NJ most likely had a steered beam YAG which is the perfect tool for engraving anodized aluminum. Flying optics systems (YAG or CO2) can't compete with the speed or quality. The only issues with YAG markers are the price and the field size.
Jim
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#16]
19 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#15] 19 Mar 2005
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#17]
19 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#16] 19 Mar 2005
Yes
Jim
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#18]
21 Mar 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#10] 21 Mar 2005
If there is anyone in Oregon with a YAG laser I have yet to meet them. None I know of within 200 miles. From what I'm reading here, the 5" would be fine, but the 8" would push the limits of a YAG - is that right?
I don't know if a YAG laser is what the NJ place is using. They are not very common. I would doubt it in this area, but perhaps that area has the industrial capacity to make one worth having.
It is my understanding that a YAG laser and a regular laser are not interchangable in regards to what they would be used for - you would buy the YAG for specific uses and the other for other specific uses - am I right?
Cindy
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19]
21 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#18] 21 Mar 2005
To my understanding, (what I have heard and not necessarily accurate), the YAG cannot do glass, and the CO2 cannot cut metals, (which the YAG can). Other than that it is machine design that makes the difference.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#20]
21 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19] 21 Mar 2005
And it is the YAG that does the inside of the acrylics where you see the detailed art designs isn't it? Which a regular laser can not do if I remember that right.
Cindy
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