Full Version: Pricing Correctly / YAG vs CO2
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#20]
21 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19] 21 Mar 2005
And it is the YAG that does the inside of the acrylics where you see the detailed art designs isn't it? Which a regular laser can not do if I remember that right.
Cindy
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#21]
21 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#20] 22 Mar 2005
The claim is that is a dual beam engraver. True or not, who knows?
The system must be fast for the price that I see it selling for. YAG would make sense because no matter what you do with a CO2, the light is stopped at the surface by absorption.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#22]
21 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5] 22 Mar 2005
Cindy,
As you mentioned, perhaps they are not comparing apples to apple. There is a method of doing what you are talking about using a silkscreen process of some sort. I have no idea what the cost comparison between silkscreening industrial panels or lasering them would be, but maybe that is the reason for the disparagy (sp?)
On another note, DON'T sell yourself, your service or your quality short. Sometimes ( I learned this from my other business) it is simply better to walk away.
Good luck. I wish I could be of more help.
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#23]
21 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 21 Mar 2005
David,
Replying to this a little late, However I just wanted to let everyone know that ULS has a YAG system with an 18x32 field size. It is set-up like the Co2's with flying optics and is not as fast as the steered optics or galvo heads. But it has a definite niche that it fills.
The one thing that people don't factor into speed is the manual labor of changing the parts that are engraved or marked. By utilizing the large field and the 65+ Inches per second marking speed your actual labor costs are probably less.
All you do is load and unload a tray with 100 pcs. Versus one at a time every 5 seconds.
Depending on the quantity of parts the cost to operate the small field Yag system would probably be more that the cost to operate the large field. Unless you have employees that only get paid $5.00 per HR.
The other plus with a large field Yag is "Large Parts". We have a lot of aerospace companies using our systems for there machine panels.
and other larger parts that would be difficult to do on the small field Yags.
With all this said I believe there is a definite niche for these systems and for the price you pay for the small field Yag markers you can have a large field Yag marker
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24]
21 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#23] 21 Mar 2005
Mike,
The good point you make, with respect to speed, is being able to walk away from a machine, while it engraves (whatever number of pieces) is particulalry useful to shops with a limited number of people.
Being a one-man-band myself, I often feel like a short order cook.
If the workflow is choreographed properly, it's possible to have multiple machines running, including printers for sublimation, UV curing unit for epoxy doming etc., etc. with the final result being an incredible amount of work getting done, by one person.
Machines set up with long running times can (sounds strange) be better than those which run at the speed of sound, but require constant attention.
In some cases = Speed Kills :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#25]
21 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24] 21 Mar 2005
David,
Although I understand the "one man band" problem, I would be hard pressed to accept the argument that less speed translates to higher thru-put and therefore more $$/hour.
Using Laserman's example of 100 pieces loaded into a fixture onto a flying optics system vs: a 5 second cycle time per piece on a steered beam system:
Wood pens might be a good example of such a job. I assume that the bed of a flying optics marker could accept a fixture containing 100 wooden pens to be decorated with a logo. A 5 second cycle time might be a pretty good estimate for a steered beam system to mark a wood pen with a 1/4 to 3/8 inch high logo: 3 seconds of mark time and 2 seconds of unload/load time for a new pen. That translates to 12 pens a minute or 720 pens per hour on a steered beam marker. Is this realistic? Well, I've actually done it myself. But I don't expect my marker operators to work at the same pace as the owner of the company so I tone down my expectations from them. On this type of job I would realisticly expect to see 500 pens per hour and a run of 2000 pens should be finished in 4 hours. I would bid the job on that basis and make my margins.
Since I have no actual hands on experience with flying optics systems I must defer to the experts with this question: For something like wooden pens with a 1/4 to 3/8 inch high logo, is 500 parts an hour an achievable thru-put and would one expect a 2000 piece run to be completed in 4 hours assuming the machine was attended those entire 4 hours.
An often ignored benefit or one at a time, high speed parts marking is that I don't have to have fixtures made to hold 100 or so parts for every item that comes into our shop for engraving.
One might argue that 2000 pieces is not a typical sized order and I would respond by saying that the argument for high speed, one part at a time marking becomes even more compelling for small runs of parts.
I really don't know what are typical per hour thruputs for small parts on flying optics laser systems and would be interested in feedback.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26]
21 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#25] 21 Mar 2005
Jim,
I look forward to feedback from your "Thru-Put" question. You'll find Mike Mackenzie (ULS) very knowledgeable and willing to offer his input.
I also wish to thank you (and all participating forum members) for taking time from your hectic schedule(s) to share such valuable knowledge from your respective area(s) of expertise.
The volume of posts and a higher level of technical discussion has really picked up.
Ya gotta love it!
I do :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
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EDITED: 21 Mar 2005 by DGL
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#27]
21 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#25] 21 Mar 2005
Jim,
Realistically with rough numbers on a flying optic 12x24 system. you could produce between 1100 and 1800 pens in a 4 hour period. I am basing this off of an 8 to 12 second print time. There are several factors that would come into play to determine the final numbers, (Depth, Graphic, material, etc).
Just playing with numbers this is what I came up with.
12x24 work area = 48 pens x 8 seconds = 384 seconds / 6.4 minutes per run.
60 divided by 6.4 = 9.375 runs per hr.
9.375 x 48=450 pens per hr.
450x4 hours=1800
I am not saying that the galvo head lasers are slower what I am saying is you can utilize an employee for several other tasks other than loading and unloading.
That said the flying optic system has its benefits.
We also use the laser to cut all of our fixtures and with a set of identical fixtures you can keep the system running non stop.
Without Breaks/Lunch/holidays/sickness. When ever Its turned on and loaded they go to work. I classify the flying optic systems as the robotic employee.
Yes it does take someone to tell it what to do but it never asks for a raise and you pretty much no what you can expect to get from it.
Please I am not saying one is better than the other They both have there advantages and dis advantages.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#28]
21 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#27] 21 Mar 2005
Mike,
What would an "Entry Level" flying optic YAG system cost? Not necessarily ULS. Industry wide.
I don't know if people realize how much the cost of a CO2 system has come down over the years. When I first saw 25 watt systems hit the awards and engraving industry, I think they were upwards of $50K.
Does a YAG system (flying optic) run at roughly the same speed as the CO2 systems?
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: bobkat [#29]
21 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19] 21 Mar 2005
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30]
21 Mar 2005
To: bobkat [#29] 21 Mar 2005
Bobkat,
Is that straight Co2, or a mixture of another gas?
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#31]
21 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#28] 21 Mar 2005
David,
First the price of an entry level Yag system is around 40K This depends on mfg and power and we are talking about galvo head Yag. The only price I can offer is for the ULS and it is a 18x32 Diode pumped system that lists for $69,000. What most people don't know is the cost of operation. Lamp Yag systems can cost 150 to 300 per month in just consumables, Diode pumped systems last much longer but can cost as much as $10,000.00 with the consumables however this would be approximately 5 to 7 years. If you break that down its about $2000 per year. the lamp systems could cost as much as 3,600.00 per year this is all depending on use.
There are no real entry level flying optics Yag systems. Until Trotec announced there dual co2/yag system in Las Vegas Universal was the only one of its size available (I am speaking within our industry) I am not sure how trotec is doing the dual mode system because with my understanding the two systems use different optics in order to operate.
At Las Vegas they did not do both processes at one time co2 first then Yag second and it was not very impressive. I Think they have a good Idea but really need to work out the Kinks.
As to the speed yes the ULS system uses the same platform as there co2's so the speed is the same. On the other hand we are talking about completely different materials so its not fair to compare they are not apples to apples.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#32]
21 Mar 2005
To: bobkat [#29] 21 Mar 2005
How many watts would be needed in a YAG to cut the same thickness stainless as the 150 watt CO2?
I have always been told that metals reflect IR light. I do know that at minimum speed and max power my 25 watt unit will not touch the foiled labels that some materials have on them. (Oops, that darned label left a scrap!)
Always eager to learn.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#33]
21 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#31] 21 Mar 2005
Mike,
Thank you for that info. With that rate of initial and sustained operating costs, where do you see the "Profit Pockets" for YAG equipment?
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 21 Mar 2005 by DGL
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#34]
21 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#32] 21 Mar 2005
Harvey,
To do it efficiently 250 to 500 watts You can do it with less but it is a slow process and you need to have an oxygen assist in order to do it at all.
There are Plasma cutters that work much better for cutting metals than lasers do and they are one third the price.
There are even water jets that will cut metals better than laser. The guy's who do a lot of metal cutting with laser are usually using 1.5 kilo watts minimum.
These companies also own 40 percent of the electric companies because they use serious amounts of it in order to operate and they also use flowing oxygen to assist with metal
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#35]
21 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#33] 22 Mar 2005
David,
Typically AD specialty markets, There has been a large growth in the aerospace industry as well.
What used to be chemical etched is now getting laser etched.
From: bobkat [#36]
21 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30] 22 Mar 2005
From: bobkat [#37]
21 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#32] 22 Mar 2005
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#38]
21 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#35] 22 Mar 2005
Throughput is dependant on a lot of things , for example a pen with cerdec in a jig on a C02 is way way slower than any galvo YAG can be , apart from engraving speed , there is coating and uncoating etc.
In terms of employees , you need 2 people for this with a co2 , a coater/uncoater and a loader/watcher. You might be lucky and get about 30-40 pens per hr using a co2 and a coating.
There are risks to doing multiples in jigs too , if something goes wrong and the process is unattended , then you potentially have an expense far greater than the engraving cost in that one might have to replace many ruined items. For a simple logo on a wood pen it might be a different story.
I have 3 Co2 lasers , 2 operator/designers ONLY for these , a further designer for these and other machines and never use any of them for packing , unpacking , coating etc - I could not se my way to getting any decent thruput with a single operator - we do run high production here , most of my lasers are busy or fully occupied 8 hrs a day.
As to pricing , I don't know the exact quality of the system , but we can get a ND yag , with a 50 w av power , 7000m/sec . 11cm x 11 cm marking field , with chillers , positioning tables etc - from china , at about $25 000. From the same co there is a diode pumped laser , nd3 yag , also 50 w complete with computer , chiller , positioning table for $40k.
These are FOB prices and I have NO idea of the quality of the system , backup etc. We have been qoted higher prices locally for lesser power. Around $100k for a zenith 25 w installed with positioning systems etc. Gcc , a chinese co whose CO2 lasers I use , have a galvo yag marker in their line up
http://www.laserproi.com/en/mark_prod_model_detail.php?ID=English_040920042129#spec
and the local guys have quoted us $53 000 installed.
I suspect in this field you get what you pay for as with most things.
For $50k , we could get 2 1/2 x 30 w explorers or for $100k a medium powered largish format cutting system.
As to power , well that too seems a sort of you cant compare apples to apples field, I have seen all sorts of measurements like peak powers , average powers , tem beam quality etc etc and am totally confused
I have also seen some variance in what power is required to cut stainless , beam dynamics offer a 500w and dont really intimate it would cut more than 1.5mm stainless steel?
The real reason we would get a yag is to be able to mark metals , pvcs and various plastic etc with very high speed and compete in the ad specialities branding market concentrating on high volumes.
This is a seasonal industry and is pretty much cut throat in that there are cheaper ways of branding with far lesser captial costs (pad printing etc)
As david says , at least this is a very interesting discussion and I have not seen any definitive discussion on any forum with the specifics of YAG vs CO2 in these terms.
Regards
Rodney
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#39]
22 Mar 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#38] 22 Mar 2005
Rodney,
My times were done on Wood pens not applying Cerdec. There is no comparison to doing it that way Versus the Yag simply because you don't have to apply any secondary material.
I would not personally do any pens that way using the Co2's
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