Full Version: Pricing Correctly / YAG vs CO2
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#45]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#44] 23 Mar 2005
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#46]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#44] 23 Mar 2005
Raster is the only way to get a filled area. If you do enough vector lines to simulate a fill, you are basically doing a raster anyway.
It all depends on the size of the filled area compared to the total size as to if it pays to do the additional setup to vector fill an area. Usually it does not pay at all.
Lettering is raster or it looks like a drag engraving.
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#47]
23 Mar 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#45] 23 Mar 2005
Thanks to you and Harvey-Only for the info.
OK...another question regarding time and file type efficiencies: Don't raster files require that the laser has to traverse over white areas as well in order to get to the next pixel to be marked? Doesn't that consume a lot of time?
YAG lasers have an extremely important laser parameter called Q switch frequence that doesn't exist on CO2 lasers. For that reason raster files are more difficult and slower on steered beam YAGs. I have applied that same vector file philosophy to our steered beam CO2 markers and have never really investigated raster images on the steered beam CO2s that we have.
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#48]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#41] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
My only suggestion would be to run the panel and give you the spec's. Are you by chance going to Westec first week in April at the LA Convention center.
We will have our Yag system at this show and would have no problem doing the whole panel for you while you wait then you can see first hand the speeds and set-up Raster/Vector capabilities.
If you are not then maybe we can get a panel and run the file and give you all the specs. (time, power,etc.).
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#49]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#42] 23 Mar 2005
Cindy / David
I believe that these systems use multiple beams that meet in the center
creating a micro explosion. Thus creating the 3D image on the inside of the crystal.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#50]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#47] 23 Mar 2005
Some drivers enable you to skip white , IE will either move at max speed over white areas or will laser a single isolated graphic/word zithering back and forward just over the graphic or actually work out the most efficient lasering strategy.
Saves incredible amounts of time.
You still get fast rastering with steered beam , or the ones I have seen. Depends on software and driver but the beam travereses so much quicker without the inertia of a flying head and the limitations of the motion system draging huge weights around (compared to a galvo)
I cant see why raster should be a problem?
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#51]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#47] 23 Mar 2005
On most engraving systems the head jumps past any area that does not need anything engraved, including edges that are blank. It makes a huge difference in time on most files. 1/3 to 1/2 the time of a full image pass is the rule not the exception.
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#52]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#48] 23 Mar 2005
Mike,
I am pretty interested in testing this because it is a long running job for us and I hope to be doing it for years.
This particular panel is on stainless steel and we put a very black mark on it. This is the type of mark that is referred to as a "stain mark" in the YAG marker business. Are you familiar with that type of mark?
I think that I could talk my customer out of a panel or two for testing and I could give you a file of the marking info. What format would you prefer? I could also give you a sample of the mark that we have to achieve. If you could then figure out laser parameters that would dulplicate the stain mark then it wouldn't even be necessary to actually mark an entire panel. Just load the graphic, set the laser parameters and time the job.
What do you think? Interested?
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#52] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
Absolutely! I can't or Won't promise anything but the test will prove or dis prove the capabilities of the system then you can compare the two processes.
A sample of the mark and an Autocad file (we have 2000i , 2005 and R14) along with the panel and we can do the test. If you want you can send it to my address below.
When you prepare the file make it to actual size one file. If you don't have Autocad capabilities we can use Corel, Illustrator, freehand, or export as a DXF out of other Cad programs.
As I mentioned we will be at the Westec show 4-3 - 4-7 and will have the yag there If you can get me the panel and file before that time I can run the sample at the show and send it back right after.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#54]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53] 23 Mar 2005
All I can say is that I have learned more about lasers and their capabilities by reading this whole thread than anything I have ever read about laser systems. In fact, I think I will print it out and read it over a couple of times and then start to decipher the language - there are words that I know, but used in ways I didn't understand. So, more learning ahead.
Thanks to all who have posted here. This was a very valuable thread to me and I'm sure to many others.
Cindy
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53] 23 Mar 2005
HI Mike,
I would probaly send you a dxf file from Engravelab. I don't know if I can get things to you for a week or so because I am at my house in Mexico on vacation and won't return until the 30th but let me talk to my Production Manager and see if he can get things together for me.
I'll let you know how things progrees.
Thanks again.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56]
23 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#54] 23 Mar 2005
Cindy,
I think those of us not "in the know" could use a crib sheet of terms, such as, "What do the letters YAG represent?"
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#57]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
I thought you were in Mexico on business. You mentioned the potential glass engraving customer. Now, I have no sympathy for you :-)
Don't worry. Marco is on the job. I called this morning with another job for Jimani, which will be coming your way, after the piece(s) are manufactured.
BTW, my customer with the Waterman pens, loved the job you did.
So did I :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#58]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56] 23 Mar 2005
Cindy are you ready for this?
YAG = Yttrium Aluminum Garnet
It is basically a source for creating the laser light.
Hope that doesn't confuse the heck out of everyone
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#59]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
That file will be fine and oh by the way if you need someone to chauffeur you around I can be there in oh 3-to-4 hours.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#60]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#44] 23 Mar 2005
Raster vs Vector engraving... the speed advantage depends on what your engraving. (Raster lines per inch, and quantity/complexity & density of content.) The other month I printed some text at 300LPI. Then did the same thing vectoring the text outline. Same text from Corel, solid fill vs outline. I was surprised the vector was slower even though it wasn't wasting time going back and forth.
There were a lot of small letters; it never got up to speed, constantly changing direction. If I were running at 1,000 LPI vector probably would have been noticeably faster. If the words weren't as dense, things would have been different. (I think it was a block of 14 point text, about 3 or 4" square.)
The font will come into play. Is the letter "T" two lines or 8 line segments. Your choice might depend on the size and substrate.
On an order I currently have pending I'm using both raster and vector. It'll give the best quality and throughput. (Raster for horizontal text; Vector for a vertically oriented graphic.)
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#61]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#57] 23 Mar 2005
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#62]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56] 23 Mar 2005
Yttrium Aluminum Garnet..more accurately referred to as Nd:YAG
The Nd stands for neodymium.
CO2 lasers use a tube of excited gas as the lasing medum. YAG lasers use a crystal rod made of YAG and doped with approximately 1% of Nd. The crystal gets "pumped" (same thing as applying power to your CO2 laser) by either an arc lamp (lamp pumped YAG) or by a bank of laser diodes (diode pumped YAG)
So much for Lasers 101
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#63]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#59] 23 Mar 2005
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#64]
23 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#60] 23 Mar 2005
Ken,
Regarding not coming up to speed: That is essentially a non problem with galvo driven systems BUT......you're limited to smaller field sizes.
I think that there is a completely different mind set with flying optics users and streed beam users. An earlier post stated that flying optics systems act more like dot matrix printers. Steered beam systems act more like plotters.
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