Full Version: Pricing Correctly / YAG vs CO2
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#50]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#47] 23 Mar 2005
Some drivers enable you to skip white , IE will either move at max speed over white areas or will laser a single isolated graphic/word zithering back and forward just over the graphic or actually work out the most efficient lasering strategy.
Saves incredible amounts of time.
You still get fast rastering with steered beam , or the ones I have seen. Depends on software and driver but the beam travereses so much quicker without the inertia of a flying head and the limitations of the motion system draging huge weights around (compared to a galvo)
I cant see why raster should be a problem?
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#51]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#47] 23 Mar 2005
On most engraving systems the head jumps past any area that does not need anything engraved, including edges that are blank. It makes a huge difference in time on most files. 1/3 to 1/2 the time of a full image pass is the rule not the exception.
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#52]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#48] 23 Mar 2005
Mike,
I am pretty interested in testing this because it is a long running job for us and I hope to be doing it for years.
This particular panel is on stainless steel and we put a very black mark on it. This is the type of mark that is referred to as a "stain mark" in the YAG marker business. Are you familiar with that type of mark?
I think that I could talk my customer out of a panel or two for testing and I could give you a file of the marking info. What format would you prefer? I could also give you a sample of the mark that we have to achieve. If you could then figure out laser parameters that would dulplicate the stain mark then it wouldn't even be necessary to actually mark an entire panel. Just load the graphic, set the laser parameters and time the job.
What do you think? Interested?
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#52] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
Absolutely! I can't or Won't promise anything but the test will prove or dis prove the capabilities of the system then you can compare the two processes.
A sample of the mark and an Autocad file (we have 2000i , 2005 and R14) along with the panel and we can do the test. If you want you can send it to my address below.
When you prepare the file make it to actual size one file. If you don't have Autocad capabilities we can use Corel, Illustrator, freehand, or export as a DXF out of other Cad programs.
As I mentioned we will be at the Westec show 4-3 - 4-7 and will have the yag there If you can get me the panel and file before that time I can run the sample at the show and send it back right after.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#54]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53] 23 Mar 2005
All I can say is that I have learned more about lasers and their capabilities by reading this whole thread than anything I have ever read about laser systems. In fact, I think I will print it out and read it over a couple of times and then start to decipher the language - there are words that I know, but used in ways I didn't understand. So, more learning ahead.
Thanks to all who have posted here. This was a very valuable thread to me and I'm sure to many others.
Cindy
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#53] 23 Mar 2005
HI Mike,
I would probaly send you a dxf file from Engravelab. I don't know if I can get things to you for a week or so because I am at my house in Mexico on vacation and won't return until the 30th but let me talk to my Production Manager and see if he can get things together for me.
I'll let you know how things progrees.
Thanks again.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56]
23 Mar 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#54] 23 Mar 2005
Cindy,
I think those of us not "in the know" could use a crib sheet of terms, such as, "What do the letters YAG represent?"
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#57]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
I thought you were in Mexico on business. You mentioned the potential glass engraving customer. Now, I have no sympathy for you :-)
Don't worry. Marco is on the job. I called this morning with another job for Jimani, which will be coming your way, after the piece(s) are manufactured.
BTW, my customer with the Waterman pens, loved the job you did.
So did I :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#58]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56] 23 Mar 2005
Cindy are you ready for this?
YAG = Yttrium Aluminum Garnet
It is basically a source for creating the laser light.
Hope that doesn't confuse the heck out of everyone
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#59]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#55] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
That file will be fine and oh by the way if you need someone to chauffeur you around I can be there in oh 3-to-4 hours.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#60]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#44] 23 Mar 2005
Raster vs Vector engraving... the speed advantage depends on what your engraving. (Raster lines per inch, and quantity/complexity & density of content.) The other month I printed some text at 300LPI. Then did the same thing vectoring the text outline. Same text from Corel, solid fill vs outline. I was surprised the vector was slower even though it wasn't wasting time going back and forth.
There were a lot of small letters; it never got up to speed, constantly changing direction. If I were running at 1,000 LPI vector probably would have been noticeably faster. If the words weren't as dense, things would have been different. (I think it was a block of 14 point text, about 3 or 4" square.)
The font will come into play. Is the letter "T" two lines or 8 line segments. Your choice might depend on the size and substrate.
On an order I currently have pending I'm using both raster and vector. It'll give the best quality and throughput. (Raster for horizontal text; Vector for a vertically oriented graphic.)
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#61]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#57] 23 Mar 2005
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#62]
23 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#56] 23 Mar 2005
Yttrium Aluminum Garnet..more accurately referred to as Nd:YAG
The Nd stands for neodymium.
CO2 lasers use a tube of excited gas as the lasing medum. YAG lasers use a crystal rod made of YAG and doped with approximately 1% of Nd. The crystal gets "pumped" (same thing as applying power to your CO2 laser) by either an arc lamp (lamp pumped YAG) or by a bank of laser diodes (diode pumped YAG)
So much for Lasers 101
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#63]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#59] 23 Mar 2005
From: Jim (JEARMAN) [#64]
23 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#60] 23 Mar 2005
Ken,
Regarding not coming up to speed: That is essentially a non problem with galvo driven systems BUT......you're limited to smaller field sizes.
I think that there is a completely different mind set with flying optics users and streed beam users. An earlier post stated that flying optics systems act more like dot matrix printers. Steered beam systems act more like plotters.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#58] 23 Mar 2005
Mike,
I knew the "Garnet" part. Thanks for filling in the blanks.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#66]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#58] 23 Mar 2005
I recognize the word aluminum and the word garnet, but the first word is completely alien and I'll be the garnet is not a jewel, is it?
Not so much a crib sheet - I think this is a whole new language to learn.
Cindy
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#67]
23 Mar 2005
To: Jim (JEARMAN) [#61] 23 Mar 2005
Jim,
I don't get away often enough, but I do make a point of making a trip to a National Park, right after the ARA Las Vegas show, every year.
Zion/Bryce for a couple of years running. This year was Sequoia.
I try to remove myself from as much technology as possible, during those trips. Gives me a new perspective for business, upon my return.
And no, from what I've see at your shop, your absence hasn't slowed things down at all.
PS - I don't know what kind of neighborhood you're in down there, but it might be a good idea if I show up to guard your house while you're away .
I'm here to help :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: precisionlaser [#68]
23 Mar 2005
To: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#49] 23 Mar 2005
Mike,
I suppose I oughta jump in on this, since we own two of these lasers and this is what we do for a living. There aren't two beams. It's one beam, fired through an F-Theta lens (via galvo mirrors in a scan head) to a point in the glass at the focal point of the lens. Generally, you see either a straight YAG laser at 1064nm (near infra-red) or a frequency doubled version of it at 532nm (green). These lasers are generally diode-pumped by diode banks at 805-810 nm (very deep red), although there wouldn't be any reason I know of that they couldn't be lamp pumped. Believe it or not, the output power is less than one watt!
The movement in the X-Y direction is controlled by the scan head to the extent of the scan field. If the image exceeds the scan field, most quality lasers have a moveable X-Y table to accommodate larger images. The movement in the Z axis is controlled by a large servo moving the scan head up and down as needed via a worm gear.
Images are converted into point clouds (which are nothing more than a zillion X-Y-Z coordinates) and it's not unusual for an image to have over 100,000 points or more. Each of these points is variously described as a bubble in the glass, or a crack in the glass. The technical name for what happens is thermal ionization (don't ask me to explain that!). I just call them cracks, because that's what you get if you get too many of those little guys next to each other...a shattered cube.
There's not really a heck of a lot of magic in this...these lasers have just been constructed for this purpose. I hope this helps.
Mark
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#69]
23 Mar 2005
To: precisionlaser [#68] 23 Mar 2005
Mark,
Thanks for that description When I first saw those laser systems 5-10 years ago It was explained to me that they collide the beams to create the 3D image.
I did think that is was true because of the way a yag can go right thought a clear object and mark the surface below.
Now I know or they have changed these systems with new technology which I would not doubt at all.
I remember one of the first lasers that did that was a 500,000 dollar system made in Russia.
Ah how times have changed
Thanks again I will correct my answers when people ask me how its done now I know.
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