Full Version: Doming - testing the waters.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6]
25 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#3] 25 Mar 2005
Here's a picture of the $25 UV curing box I made for doming. Now all I need to do is wait for the UV epoxy to arrive.
I decided to line the inside of the box with some metal tape I had. (Note I did not put any in the area where the bulbs are attached.) Not sure if It'll reflect the UV, but it can't hurt.
After I apply the epoxy I'll Put the box over the item and turn it on.
Rodney, you had a very informative post. For the low quantity I'll be doing, 1+ pieces, the convenience of the UV epoxy is worth the cost. Its amazing the difference volume makes. I'm also not concerned with the 1/2 hour cure time using a UV light from the local store.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7]
25 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6] 25 Mar 2005
When you said fluorescent bulbs I wondered about how much UV would come out. I know that printer's fluorescents had stripes of no phosphor to allow the full spectrum out, but they are dangerous to look at. All wavelengths of UV come out of those.
Now I see that they are UV fluorescents, great. Makes my creative juices run.
Where did you find the bulbs?
EDITED: 25 Mar 2005 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#8]
25 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7] 25 Mar 2005
I exchanged some emails with ultra dome. I was told that an ordinary fluorescent black light will work if it's within an inch or two of the epoxy. I am hoping a compact florescent will also work. These say 15W; don't know if that's the bulb or unit.
Home Depot has 18" and 24" bulbs. The compact fluorescents I bought are from Spencer Gifts, at the local mall, $5 each. The box I used is 5.5"x4.5"x3", very thin flute, maybe F.
I ended up buying a small bottle of the epoxy and the applicators from ultra dome. (They'll be offering a smaller entry level UV system in a few months. It'll probably be good for people who don't want to rig up their own, and don't requrie the size/price of the existing system.) I'm not sure if its the hard or soft epoxy David discussed. If my initial tests go ok I'll check out CGS and their offering.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#9]
28 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7] 28 Mar 2005
Harvey,
The light worked well with my first test piece, though it did get a little warm in under the box. I need to think about adding vent holes yet still containing the UV light.
My first test piece saw a laser engraved sticker, the Laser Lights material. I now understand why the video on the Ultra Dome web site used a removable adhesive to hold the stickers; mine cured with a very slight curl.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#10]
28 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#9] 28 Mar 2005
I cannot find the screw in UV lights at Home Depot, where did you get them?
I am glad it worked out for you.
As far as the heat, if it is not too much for the box, it should promote the setting also. It will also tend to thin out the stuff before it cures a bit to make that unseen bubble rise and pop.
If the heat is too much, a hole just above the sockets will allow the least amount of light to escape, and a hole at the bottom of the back will make for much improved circulation.
I forgot to mention in the previous post that the metal tape probably doubles the amount of usable UV inside the box. A shiny metal under the item will also reflect back a lot of light.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#11]
28 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#10] 28 Mar 2005
"I cannot find the screw in UV lights at Home Depot, where did you get them?"
- From "Spencer Gifts" at the local mall. They carry various novelty items.
My only concern with the heat, and I don't know if its justified, is a noticeably shortened bulb life. I ran it for 25min. I'll have to see how much time is required.
I'm considering spray painting the applicator bottle to help help keep the contents in the dark.
Its an amazingly easy process. I ordered a small bottle of the flexible epoxy so I can compare the two and see which I prefer.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12]
28 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 28 Mar 2005
David,
Any recommendations when to use rigid vs. flexible epoxy? I'm assuming its based on personal preference, with some applications lending themselves more to one or the other.
Does anything happen if its left under the light longer then necessary?
You mentioned in another thread that you'll be covering tips and tricks for large items in a class you'll be giving. How big of an item is easy to do without knowing the insider tricks?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13]
28 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12] 29 Mar 2005
Ken,
Too much heat can be a problem. Not only detrimental to bulb life, but if you're doming sublimated items, especially metal, too much heat can cause the image to blur.
Doming larger items (6" discs, as an example) aren't much more difficult than smaller items. The trick, and thing to keep in mind when using UV cure epoxy, is the epoxy is curing, albeit slowly, as soon as you begin to work with it.
Instructions dictate working in subdued lighting. Problem with that is, you can't easily spot small air bubbles. Using magnification to spot the bubbles helps significantly. What also helps is working in better lighting.
If you work in more intense lighting, you have to "pour it on." Using the small applicator bottle (after curing) will reveal the pattern, on your domed item, in which you applied the epoxy.
You'll learn, through experience, how much epoxy can be rapidly laid down without breaking the surface tension, or capillary action, which creates the dome. That learning curve can get a little messy :-)
Too much time under the curing lights is better than not enough. Doesn't harm anything.
Flexible vs. Rigid:
Flexible epoxy has a handy self-healing characteristic. A dent will eventually return to its original shape. Another trait of flexible epoxy, even after cured, exhibits a "tacky" feel. If you put such a domed item in a poly bag, it will stick to the bag like Saran wrap. No fun to remove. In fact you'll usually end up tearing the bag.
Flexible is somewhat of a misnomer. If you dome an adhesive-backed label and adhere it to a coffee mug, unless the adhesive is extremely aggressive, the domed label will attempt to return to its original form (flat).
Rigid epoxy is just that. Cures to a non-tacky, hard plastic consistency. It can crack with enough impact. I've used both flexible and rigid epoxy on sublimated namebadges.
My namebadge customers favor the rigid epoxy. Mainly because of the non-stick finish.
There's your mini-seminar Ken :-)
For the Full Monty, you'll need to show up at Coast Graphic Supply on April 9th, where I'll have examples of sublimated, domed items that are used in applications most people wouldn't expect.
Is it possible to turn a few cents of metal and epoxy into $100 (or more)? If I hadn't already done it, I'd say no :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 28 Mar 2005 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14]
28 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 28 Mar 2005
I am fairly certain that he was talking about no more than 125* to 150* from the bulbs. More than that would be a wiring risk. 150* for 20 minutes should not affect sublimated product unless it will rapidly, (a few days), blur out into the dome anyway.
If you use standard light bulbs you can get a huge amount of light with virtually no UV. One 40 watt fluorescent will output a lot more UV than probably 400w to 1000w of incandescents. (The light starts out as pure multi-wavelength UV in a fluorescent.)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
28 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14] 29 Mar 2005
Harvey,
The heat conductivity of the metal may play a role in the blurring. <shrug>
I realize the temps brought to bear in a curing unit don't reach the 350+ mark, which would surely reactivate the sublimation dyes.
When doming metal namebadges, I place the items on the glass trays which come with the Ultradome unit. Since the trays themselves conduct heat, I don't use the same tray in consecutive curings.
Laser sublimation is much more subject to blurring than ink jet sublimation. Unless ALL toner residue is removed before applying the epoxy, you're guaranteed a dud.
Could be that if ink jet sublimation isn't driven deep enough into the coating, enough of the dye remains close enough to the surface to be affected by the epoxy.
Probabaly more a reaction between dye and epoxy than anything to do with heat. I don't know. I just know that I have much more success in doming ink jet sublimated items.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#16]
29 Mar 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14] 29 Mar 2005
Harvey,
Do you know how the output spectrum from the screw-in halogen, "Halogena", bulbs compare to the florescent and incandescent?
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17]
29 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 29 Mar 2005
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18]
29 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#16] 29 Mar 2005
No idea whatsoever to the output. But in general a halogen bulb puts out a little more UV than a regular incandescent, but far less than a fluorescent.
An incandescent is usually about 3200* Kelvin in color temperature, a halogen about 3400* Kelvin. I think a fluorescent is about 5800*, (green zone), average output, (30 year old memory from working with film crews). But a fluorescent has many shorter wavelengths also, including a bit of UV.
I prefer the warm white fluorescents, more light output as far as the eyes can see. The others put out a lot of blue which reduces the eyes sensitivity to all colors, therefore less effective light and a bad skin color. I have been told that blue is forbidden in airplane cockpits because it kills night vision. Warships use a dull red in the areas that have people going out to the night when in battle. It prepares the eyes for better night vision. Oops, end of ramble.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19]
29 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17] 30 Mar 2005
Ken,
I was kidding. I know you're on the East Coast and coming to California for one day wouldn't make sense.
Looks like I may have to begin filming some of these procedures.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20]
30 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19] 30 Mar 2005
David,
I meant it more as a general comment that a lot of people would attend more seminars/classes if they were local. It doesn't help that this is a very geographically diverse group. Of course this forum, and business, would not work if we were all in the same county.
You're also walking a fine line. One side is sharing openly with the forum, the other side has your published articles and classes. What's the expression about not buying the cow if the milk is free.
Edited to add: I like the video idea. (future forum section?)
EDITED: 30 Mar 2005 by KDEVORY
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#21]
30 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20] 30 Mar 2005
Ken,
There's so much business out there that I don't understand when people suggest "training the competition" is a factor.
So many components go into operating a successful business, that people should easily be able to separate themselves from the pack, even with nearby competition.
And yes, the videotaping of a wide variety of processes, including epoxy doming procedures, will be a component of the "new" forum.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#22]
30 Mar 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#21] 30 Mar 2005
It might not happen too often. As you've said there are so many niches to get into, competition shouldn't be a big issue. Lets say there're two people Person A and Person B.
Person A is willing to do a little extra work. He takes a chance, finds his niche, and that allows him to get top dollar.
Person B wants to start his own business, but isn't a real entrepreneur. He decides to compete with Person A on price.
Yes 'A's will work together toward everyone's benefit. But how many 'B's does it take to remove the profit from large segments of the industry.
Also, in the past a niche was 'what and where'. As more commerce goes online, 'where' disappears, only 'what' is left. Yes I know, in your niche 'where' will always be important.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
30 Mar 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#22] 30 Mar 2005
Ken,
Sounds like the basis for a another topic of its own.
I may be able to launch that new discussion this evening, unless you beat me to it :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: JayBeeOz [#24]
1 Apr 2005
To: ALL
Hi All
I've been reading this thread with interest and thought I would share what I do. I use the "soft" UV epoxy for everthing. I find that it is much more durable than the hard, and also doesn't yellow as much. My wife has had her name badge for 2 1/2 years (one of the first that I did) and it has been dropped, stepped on, Machine washed, Tumble dried, and still looks as good as new...well almost.. It was mentioned earlier that this type of epoxy always has a tacky feel to it when cured. This is true to a point, maybe its the process that I use, but this tackyness wipes off easily with a rag leaving a smooth clear non tacky finish. I have built my own cabinet, and use two different types of UV Flourecent tube. After the Epoxy has been applied to the badge, a quick wave over with a small blowtorch gets rid of any air bubbles (these are minimal anyway, because there is no mixing) I then put it under the first set of tubes for 2 minutes. The first Tubes are UVA Tubes, the glass is clear, so it is pure UVA that is generated. It is very dangerous, and can burn your skin or damage your eyes within minutes, so I have rigged a trap door on the cabinet that is light tight and that when opened turns off the lamps. (I believe that it is the same type of UV light that is used in Hospital Autoclaves for sterilizing utensils). Anyway, these lamps cause the epoxy to form a glassy clear skin, and thats all. You could leave it under them for 1/2 an hour but the epoxy would remain liquid under the skin...After a couple of minutes under the UVA, the badge is transfered to a second cabinet that has ordinary UVC (Blacklight) Tubes.
It is left under these for about 8 - 10 minutes, which sets the epoxy under the skin. A wipe with a rag removes the tackyness and it's done. I have tried just the UVC by itself, and while it will set in around 15 minutes, it doesn't have the same crystal clarity that the 2 lamp process gives. A 2Kg pot of the Epoxy costs me around $300.00AU. I charge an Extra $1.50 - $2.00 (depending on quantity) and get an average of 400 - 500 badges out of a pot. I can process around 300 badges a day quite easily. One important point in getting the setting times is the distance from the badge surface to the lamps. With the UVA tubes it is 80mm. with the UVC tubes it is between 80mm & 100mm. Also being Flourecent tubes, they do not generate alot of heat. (only really at the ends where the filaments are).
John
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
1 Apr 2005
To: JayBeeOz [#24] 1 Apr 2005
John,
Very informative. Thank you.
When you say a wipe with a rag eliminates the "tacky" feel, is there anything (?) on the rag; or is it just a garden variety rag?
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
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