Full Version: Getting Out/Into Sublimation
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1]
14 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) 14 Apr 2005
Rose,
In another thread, you mentioned your desire to get out of sublimation.
I thought it might be helpful to those considering making the move into sublimation, to hear your reasons for wanting to move on.
Woud love to hear your reasoning.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#2]
14 Apr 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1] 14 Apr 2005
I am a one person shop so I don't do a lot of sublimation. Graphics is not my strongest point and it seems every time I go to use my sublimation system I have one problem or another. I started with a brand new 3000 a couple of years ago. When I started to have problems with that I got a C80 for back up. That was a nightmare that I fought with for prbably 6 or 8 months before I finally gave up on after I added the bulk system that was suggested as a cure. I had 500 white perpetual plates made for me before the new improved white came out. (Of Course!) I went through the Sawgrass black green problem. I had a Nova Chrome mug press that I really don't think the blanket was working correctly from the beginning. Got that redone and of course paid for it. Bought a second used 3000 for back up. That one works some times but more often not. Both are set up with bulk ink.
I've gotten to the point where I don't even like taking orders because I just don't know if it will even work when I go to do it. I am sure a lot of it is my fault, old ink, not enough use etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I care anymore what the reasons are I am just tired of fighting with it. My time could be better spent doing the things I do well, the things I know WILL work every time.
I believe that sometimes you just have to admit that you can't be good at everything no matter how much you want to be or how much you try. I know that I cannot glue acrylic together as well as I believe it should be done and now I know that sublimation is probably not for me.
Sometimes I felt that we, the retailers were the testers for the manufacturers. Sublimation is a very interesting process, but for me I think I have wasted more than I have sold. I am currently cleaning one of the 3000's and I may feel differently when I get it going again but probably not for long. We'll see.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
14 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#2] 14 Apr 2005
Rose,
Thank you for the candid answer. Your story is similar to others I've heard, as to why some get out of sublimation.
It's not for everyone, which should come as good news to those who have the patience to deal with the many variables.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#4]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#2] 15 Apr 2005
Rose,
Your story is very similar to mine. I owned an Epson 3000 with Sawgrass inks, then went a while with no sublimation. I then decided to get back in with an Epson C80 and Tropical Graphics bulk-ink system. I was batting .000 with these two combinations. I wasted so much time and money trying to keep the equipment functioning correctly.
There is not enough time in the day to wrestle with this process. There are too many other more dependable processes that one can develop into their business.
I still wanted to offer color to my clientele, so I made one more stab at sublimation via an HP4550 laser printer. I can't say enough good things about this process. I don't see how any full-service awards shop can operate without it.
If you do plaques and trophy plates, I would recommend keeping your heat press and investing in this process. You won't regret it.
From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#5]
15 Apr 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#4] 15 Apr 2005
I had some great ideas using sublimation, and customers loved them but it just wasn't consistent enough.
EDITED: 15 Apr 2005 by RSLIEPKA
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#6]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#5] 15 Apr 2005
Rose,
I feel your pain!
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#7]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#5] 15 Apr 2005
Rose,
You are not alone, we got out of it 3 years ago and the colsest we came to making $ was when we sold our equipment and supplies.
Dave
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#8]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#2] 15 Apr 2005
Rose,
I suppose it depends a lot on which printers you use and to a lesser degree which ink. We started with a C40 and it always worked fine, but was as slow as Christmas. We now use C60's (we have 3 of them) and they have generally been great. That is not to say we have not had a minor clog now and then, but usually 1 head cleaning takes care of it. Sometimes when we put in a new cart we have to let it sit a few hours to get flowing properly. We have stayed away from the bulk systems primarily due to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" theory.
We do not wear the printers out, but usually at least print one job every day. We alternate the jobs so that all three printers are used every day or so at least. Normally, a printer will get used at least every other day except weekends. About all we sub are aluminum plates, plaques, and badges but we do quite a few of those items.
For us subbing has been an excellent experience.
I guess we have been lucky - I am sorry to hear that so many have had problems serious enough to make them drop the method.
From: Myyk [#9]
15 Apr 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#8] 15 Apr 2005
I'm also not sure that I make any profit from sublimation. I mostly make badges and with all my redo's (I'm quite fussy) I seem to do much of the work twice.
I am still using an old Epson 900, which I admit has given me very little trouble with clogging, but the inks for that model are the old formula and prone to fading, so I don't feel I can wholeheartedly recommend the work for plaques. A move to C80 with the new formula inks would entail a much greater cost for ink cartridges, which is hardly justifiable for the amount we do. I sometimes find I have to change cartridges before they are completely empty as the colour degrades badly over time. Particularly blue.
I guess I could do more sublimation by shifting trophy plate work over from engraving, but lets face it there is very little consumable cost in engraving plates. It's just time and when you have plenty of machinery. it's not an issue.
On the positive side, some of the results from sublimation are stunning. Particularly domed full colour badges on bright silver plate.
EDITED: 16 Apr 2005 by MYYK
From: LARRY (CENTURYBADGE) [#10]
15 Apr 2005
To: Myyk [#9] 15 Apr 2005
let me jump on the bandwagon. sublimation has been a nightmare. unfortunately we purchased everything from Tropical Graphics.. BIG MISTAKE. They talk a good game we purchased a epson 1280 and from day one it was a problem. after a few months they told us we did something wrong with the ink. purchased another bulk set up $500.00. still no good results. they are very near us and told us when we purchased the equipment if we had any problems they would come out and help us. BIG JOKE. lots of double talk but no action. we took the 1280 back last december. too bad they told us it is broken and out of warranty. its been in the same condition since we purchased it. so here we are the stuckee!!
bottom line is tropical graphics is not the company to do business with. when i visited there office recently to pick up my defunct printer they had downsized from a big operation to a little office with two men and two girls . every call that came in while i was waiting to pick up my printer was for technical help with equipment.
WARNIng: if going into sublimation --don't use Tropical graphics.
Larry
Century Badge
From: Peter [#11]
15 Apr 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#6] 15 Apr 2005
Is it really such a nightmare ? For those that have gotten out, but still require the service of full colour images on badges/ plaques/ trophies...
What alternative system have you replaced the sub with ? If any system.
are you happy with the replacement result and how do you handle volume?
It is difficult for me, with a graphics background, to see local engraving shops, producing Images direct onto aluminium ( many woefully), but some acceptably and not have the personal know how to provide my clients with the same. ( albeit up to a standard that I would like)
At the same time, the clarity of sub work I have seen has been poor. and I am suprised that the general perception is, that is what it is .
How do I go about producing...lets say a plaque with a total image ( full colour photo ) and award description on lets say aluminium.
regards
Peter
From: John (JOHNRMONTG) [#12]
15 Apr 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 15 Apr 2005
I appreciate the candid comments all have made here and hope to learn much in the near future and be productive in this new venture.
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#13]
15 Apr 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#4] 15 Apr 2005
Yup, sounds familiar. I am just about at my wits end with my inkjet system right now. I started out using the very first inkjet system (Sawgrass) with the Epson Stylus, then a 785 ?? I think, then a 3000, which ran for many years then it quit and I got a C82 with Bulk system and it only lasted 6 - 8 months and Laser Reproductions suggested upgrading to a C86 at the same time they had to take their inks off of the market because of the Sawgrass settlement. I have gone thru 2 C86's - the current one is clogging all of the time, I can't get the Black to print right now.
On the other hand, my HP 4500 is stable and a joy to use, very little color problems. I just don't use it on the white metals, but I know ICON Imaging recommends using white, so I just may have to go that way.
sign me: Exasperated in ICT
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14]
15 Apr 2005
To: Peter [#11] 15 Apr 2005
Peter,
For me it wasn't much of a dilemma because I never had much success with either inkjet system. Maybe I am not persistent as others, but I am confident that I made the right decision.
Fortunately I didn't have the opportunity to promote this technology to my customer base, therefore my hands were not tied to find a solution to service them.
I had no desire to get into full-color photo imaging, but I did have a frequent request for color logos on plaques. That need, plus a $1,200 heat press setting idle, is what drove me to color laser sublimation.
I know what you are referring to in your comment about sublimation clarity. I will not let an imprint go out my door if it does not have a sharp clean edge to it. Inkjet sublimation cannot produce the same sharpness and opaqueness as direct-to-metal laser sublimation.
I would challenge any sublimation inkjet printer and ink combination against my laser printer and toner for consistency of print for spot colors. In the past year I have had two sublimation projects that involved a plaque count of greater than 100. One of those jobs had an 80% toner coverage. I seriously don't think I could make that same statement with an inkjet sublimation printer set-up. Is my thinking just jaded by my past experience? experience or does that just come with the territory?
From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#15]
15 Apr 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14] 15 Apr 2005
Has anyone used Aluma Jet? Just wondering. I guess once I clean my 3000 I could switch to regular ink and give that a shot.
Someone in an earlier post said something about a learning curve. You can't count on consistency is the big thing. I have no problem doing the homework and putting lots of work into it. And believe me I did! The problem I have is becoming a tester for the manufactures. When the Sawgrass black ink turned green, we the users had to call them after a lot of waste. When the white aluminum didn't press well we were told we were pressing too hard or too long but then all of a sudden a newer, better white aluminum came out. The C-80's didn't work out and yes, Tropical has always been really nice but I fought with that machine for months. I went through bunches or paper and hours and hours of aggrivation that I can't even describe. (You know what I mean, 10pm and you still can't get it to work, you go in the next morning still can't get it to work. You call up and they tell you they will send you another new part. Another day wasted. You get that part and the cycle starts again.) I could never be compensated for that!
I am sure that those of you that got out of it are very relieved that you aren't fighting anymore.
From: Noel (NOELF) [#16]
15 Apr 2005
To: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#15] 15 Apr 2005
Sublimation is definitely one of those "x-factor" type processes. Some people have major issues, some have minor issues.
At one point I was pressing a TON of shirts and mousepads. 1280 printer, with Rotech inks, we rarely had an issue on clogs. If I did have a bad print, it was normally the black that caused it (black seemed thicker than other inks).
After a lot of time and experimentation, we found that more than 70% of all the problems we were having was because of incomplete information within the industry. I was never so amazed, as when I changed from high to low release paper on hard goods. And all that time I thought I was the problem.
So I agree, sublimation has some issues. But it is an amazingly young industry for the most part. And as with so many rapidly changing industries there are issues.
I'm definitely not saying that sublimation is for everyone. But I can say, that I have managed some fairly amazing prints using it :)
- Noel
From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#17]
15 Apr 2005
To: Noel (NOELF) [#16] 15 Apr 2005
From: More Than Gifts (MTG) [#18]
16 Apr 2005
To: ALL
Hello,
I have been doing sublimation for almost 4 years now. Sure there have been some clogging issues, but nothing major. I have two 3000's, and once every couple of weeks, I soak and agitate the docking cups with Windex, and let the nozzles soak in the Windex overnight. The next morning, I use a Windex wip to clean the bottom of the print heads. Also, once every couple of months, I take the cover off the printers and completly give the printer a cleaning. I believe this periodic maintenance has been crucial to avoiding problems. With the paper and general dust, it is amazing how much gunk can build up inside the printers.
If you buy a car, and just drive it without changing oil, or doing preventative maintenance, how long would it last?
I do agree with Noel that there is not enough information given to new subbers when they purchase their systems, but the information is out there at this time, if you scour the internet. It certainly is not a "hook it all up and everything will be dandy" system. There is a lot to learn and be aware of, but when you get it down, it is really amazing what can be done.
Kevin
From: gt350ed [#19]
16 Apr 2005
To: ALL
As is reflected in our "signature" below, we started in the sublimation business about 5 years ago as a home-based internet only side business while we kept our day jobs. During this time, we have done literally thousands of mugs and steins shipped all over the United States and elsewhere. We have always made a good profit from this portion of our business.
Almost 2 years ago, I quit my day job and opened our trophy, awards and personalized gifts retail store. Dye sublimation came right along with us and has allowed us to incorporate full color into many of our products creating a heightened perceived value in most cases. Dye sublimation has also given us an advantage over other similar businesses because many do not do it or have tried and could not get it right. I cannot tell you how many products I've seen that were done by others that were blurry or just bad.
On the otherhand, our results are very, very good and we routinely receive compliments for accuracy of color and crispness of images and text. In addition to ceramic mugs and steins, we primarily imprint on Unisub white coated aluminum, Unisub FRP and hardboards. We've tried other manufacturers but we believe Unisub to be superior for what we do. And what we do includes name badges, clipboards, bag tags, license frames, interior signage, full color plaque plates and event or organization logo plates incorporated into trophies.
Have we had growing pains along the way? Sure. Has there been a learning curve? You bet. But everything can be overcome. Like someone said earlier, it's an "art"; or at least an acquired skill. But we have always made money and there have been many jobs we would not have gotten had it not been for our expertise in incorporating the dye-sub process into a project or product.
We use an Epson 1280, Rotech inks (now converting to Artainium) and Accuplot paper.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#20]
17 Apr 2005
To: ALL
Because the ink jet dye sublimation process is an acquired skill, and one that requires a knack, I've probably scared more people away from entering the industry than I've encouraged.
Here's an example used in an ARA seminar.
Causes for a weak or blurry image:
1) Printing to wrong side of transfer paper.
2) Using garden variety (absorbent) copy paper.
3) Too much dwell time (depending on substrate).
4) Too much heat.
5) Inferior coating on substrate.
There may be more, though, a weak/blurry image can be caused by one, or a combination of variables.
Here's the good news!
Once you climb the mountain, after making every mistake imaginable; losing valuable time, money and hair, you may find that ink jet dye sublimation is the most versatile, lucrative process you perform. :-)
EDITED: 17 Apr 2005 by DGL
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