Full Version: HEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!!!!!! ADA Signage
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1]
3 May 2005
To: ALL
Ok,
I have been asked to do some ADA signage. WhooHooo he exclaims with apprehension.
So HOW DO I DO IT?????
Hellpppppp!!!!
As we say in the islands
Tanx eh?
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#2]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 3 May 2005
With just a sandcarver and a laser... I'd say you outsource it. While you can use two layers of material and vector cut with the laser for raised lettering, proper Braille is a unique challenge...
I suppose with proper care and software to do the conversions you could blast ADA signs. Don't have a blaster here, so I've never experimented...
A few others and I had gone over this on the old new forum when we had it for a few days. I don't suppose there's a way to transfer those few posts over?
Best of luck,
Sei
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3]
3 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#2] 3 May 2005
Sei,
What other equipment would I need? There are a tremendous number of sign shops here that I could sub this out to. Currently they are sending their work to the mainland so I have the opportunity to capture the market here I think, so it would be worth the investment in new/other equipment.
Thanks
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#4]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3] 3 May 2005
The way we produce ADA signs here is with our mechanical engraver. This produces a style of ADA sign called an Applique Sign. You sandwich together two sheets of material, one .125 and one .03125 thick, using adhesive film. Most plastic suppliers I deal with can provide the thin material with adhesive pre-applied.
Put these sheets on the engraver and cut the outlines of the letters through the top thin sheet. I usually go .040, cutting a little into the base material. You then weed out the excess material (including letter centers, which can be a pain). Then you apply the Braille. This can either be done using a domed cutter or using the Rastor system from Accent Signs. We use and prefer the Rastor, as it gives a far nicer, more professional look.
Then you cut the pieces out and you're done. The larger your table, the more you can do at once. One of our competitors tries to do it on a little 12 x 8, one at a time. We have a 24" x 32" which lets us bust out a dozen or more at once.
Do you know what the architect has specced for this job? Often times they will demand Graphic Blast which is a proprietary product of Best Signs.
Architects don't like our two layer construction, out of fear that people will pick off letters.
Basically you'll need a good engraver, sharp bits, lots of material, software which can convert Braille (the Braille font is not legal Grade 2 Braille), and a Brailling method. The aforementioned Accent Signage sells a manual on ADA signage. I'd suggest you take a look at it before trying to produce anything yourself. It covers all the rules, regulations, and limitations as well as showing you the process involved.
Sei
From: laserman (MIKEMAC) [#5]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3] 3 May 2005
Chuck,
I would contact Fred at Quality one engravers. He has done this and will have the answers for you.
Fred M. Schwartz
Quality One Engravers
9749 Crescent Center Drive, Unit 202
Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730
Phone (909) 989-3898
Fax (909) 989-8617
fred@q1engravers.com
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#6]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 3 May 2005
Chuck,
Certainly followup on the info given here by others.
That said, in my opinion, it is not worth the expense, effort, and problems involved. Of course, my opinion is not worth much when it comes to doing something that requires much production effort.
It is much easier to outsource the work. I realize you may have to move to California to make that practical.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#7]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3] 3 May 2005
Chuck,
Thare are plenty of us who would be happy to keep an eye on the place while you are in California. ;-)
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#8]
3 May 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#7] 4 May 2005
I do KNOW how anxious many are to help in that regard, however, I would be doing you a disservice to help me, because well, quite frankly the pool is not in yet, and I would have to inconvenience anyone with the 10 minute walk to the beach.....I'm sure you understand....
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#9]
3 May 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#6] 4 May 2005
Actually Pete, in this case I believe I could become the "go to" guy for ALL the sign shops......it would help with the "lulls" in the rest of it. My thinking may be off on this, but so far, it just doesn't seem like work to me....
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10]
3 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#4] 4 May 2005
Sei,
Before I invest $295.00 in the manual you mentioned, ( which I believe I would make back on my first job), I must ask, have you read it? Is it worth it? Has anyone else on this forum read it?
Thanks
From: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#11]
3 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10] 4 May 2005
Chuck,
Is the manual worth the hefty price? Well, that depends on the level of your knowledge. If you already know the ADA requirements for letter size and style, Braille positioning, sign size, color requirements, installation requirements, etc. And if you know how to actually manufacture these signs, then it is questionable if the manual is worth the price. Even if you do know all the above, the manual will help you with some layout design ideas and information on how to market the product. If you don't know the above information, then you need to learn from somewhere. If you really want to get into this line of work, then the manual would probably be worthwhile for you.
The real problem you face is that you don't have a mechanical rotary engraver. I'm sure you can make these signs with your laser, but the raised applique lettering cut out on a mechanical engraver is a superior product to lasered letters. About 10 years ago I thought I would get a couple lasers for the sole purpose of cutting out the applique letters, but when I saw what the finished product looked like, I realized that I needed to stay with the mechanical systems for this product. The mechanical engraver leaves a beveled edge on the letters that make them not only visually more attractive, but more importantly they are easier and more pleasant for a visually impaired person to read.
Also, the Braille signs are just one part of the complete ADA specified wayfinding sign system. If you get into the Braille market, your customers will expect you to be able to design, fabricate and install complete wayfinding systems for their buildings. This includes all the directional and informational signs and directories. You will need to partner with screen printers, vinyl cutters, dimensional letter manufacturers, and frame manufacturers.
This can be a very profitable market, but your customers will be relying on you to tell them how to comply with the ADA, so you will have to become the expert that they expect you to be. So that was a really long way of saying, that yes, you should probably buy the manual if you want to get into ADA signs.
You have a tough job to decide what business you want to be in. Do your homework and decide for yourself what products you want to make and then market them. Don't let your customers dictate what business you are in or you may find yourself going in too many directions.
Jim
From: JHayes55 [#12]
4 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10] 4 May 2005
Mr. Dude aKa C.Burke
Good to talk with you yesterday. You have been offered some excellent
advice on ADA signage thus far. I would second the idea that especially
this first job you should "farm out". Just going through the process of decisoins
on this first group of ADA signs will help you decide if you want to invest
in equipment, software and license .
By the way how many signs are we talking about and what do they say?
If all this is for 2 bathroom signs I may hurt you!
Accent Signs are a great resource for you - Fred Swartz at Quality one
is another great resource for you - both could be your spot for out sourceing.
You may also get a feel of what it is like to deal with architects before you
invest a lot of cash.
Lastly there was an article in the Oct 2004 Engravers Journal about
lasering ADA signage. That will give you some additional knowledge
before making an investment.
Joe
Message 1254.13 was deleted
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#14]
4 May 2005
To: JHayes55 [#12] 4 May 2005
>> You may also get a feel of what it is like to deal with architects before you invest a lot of cash.
Us: Here's what we need to do.
Architect: But I want it this way!
Us: But that's not legal...
Architect: But this is how I WANT it!
Us: ...or even possible...
Architect: Yes it is! I know everything!
Us: ...uhm...
Architect: And if you don't break the legal standards, comply to my rediculous demands, and undercut your price, I'll tell my organization on you and you'll never do anything for any of us ever again!
Us: We comply, oh Dark Master.
Architect: Good. Oh, and I'll change all the colors at the last minute. Now give me your submittal so I can sit it on my desk until two weeks before I need the 300 signs.
A little exaggerated, but...
As far as the Accent Manual goes, I own it, and refer to it when there's a question. I started into the industry under someone who knew what he was doing already (though the manual that is now mine was originally his, so you might guess where he learned what he knew) so I've never read the full thing personally.
It is a bit pricy, but I feel it's a worthwhile investment if you plan to do ADA signs. It's a drop in the bucket, after all, next to the $20,000 machine you'll need. If you go with someone who is a distrubuter for Accent products (New Hermes, and I believe Quality One) you could try to talk the sales rep into sweetening the deal by throwing on in...
Sei
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#15]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#14] 4 May 2005
Sei,
You forgot part of the conversation.
Architect: We'll get you paid in about 90+ days or when the project is completed, which ever is longer.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#16]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#14] 4 May 2005
Sei,
Thank you for your input. I think it might be a worthwhile investment too....so many niches.....it's hard to know which one will pan out. I think I will check with a couple of more sign shops and see what the demand really is.
As for the architect, right after the break every legal rule comment....I would have a comment that would end in ".... OFF!"
Simple and to the point..
Thanks
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17]
4 May 2005
To: JHayes55 [#12] 4 May 2005
Joe,
It was great to talk to you yesterday also....again, thank you. I appreciate your time.
As for Outsourcing..... I AM the out source. This job is through a sign shop that is bidding the job. Normally THEY send the job to the mainland to have it done. This tells me that no one in the Islands is doing ADA signage, this further makes me think there is a niche here that would be worth the investment of time, equpiment and materials.
A little more research is necessary before I jump in but I think it might be a good move.
Thanks
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18]
4 May 2005
To: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#11] 4 May 2005
Jim
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I have a couple of irons in the fire that hopefully will result in a "mechanical" engraver. I am assuming by "mechanical" you are referring to a computerized engraver? Something from New Hermes, Gravograph or Xenetech?
Also, I had thought that ADA signage ALL had to be engraved to get the raised letters and braille settings. How does the screen printing and vinyl cutting enter into it? I have a relationship with a couple of local sign shops ( one is my neighbor) so vinyl cutting would not be tough, and I do know of a couple of screen printers.
Yes, I am trying to find my way here, so to a degree I am letting the market "inspire" me, until I get a couple of irons out of the fire. My reasoning for doing so, is that I want to be diversified because of the lulls, plus being on an Island in the middle of the Pacific, doesn't lend it'self well to the long reach one can have on the mainland.
I hope that makes sense, but Jim, you have given me pause and food for thought, which is a good thing.
Thank you
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#19]
4 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#16] 4 May 2005
What you can do without upsetting the architect is clearly explain the guidelines and why they are in violation. Then get him to sign a letter stating that he has been informed, but wishes to proceed against your recommendation. This makes him liable if the signs need to be redone, not you.
What was mentioned by someone else regarding vinyl cutters and such wasn't so much involved in ADA signs so much as the other signs that go along with them in a complete wayfinding package. This can include dimensional letters, exterior post and panel signs, all sorts. But if you have people coming to you solely for the ADA package, you might be able to avoid getting trapped in the rest of it.
Oh, and if there's no one doing ADA signs on the Islands... it might be time for me to move... ;)
Sei
From: JHayes55 [#20]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#19] 5 May 2005
Sei-
I never said that I like the architects :). Your post was great!
I have dealt with several
architects over the last few years - most are a little stange - but a few
are good folks. I had one in shop yesterday that brought me a nice
piece of business. We have done work for him before and he trusts us to
do what is right, great guy.
We do the awards each year for the local Architects Assoc. - They always
select something strange and are always slow getting me paid.
After learning this my price adjusted according to their attitude and speed
of pay.
Joe
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