Full Version: HEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!!!!!! ADA Signage
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#15]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#14] 4 May 2005
Sei,
You forgot part of the conversation.
Architect: We'll get you paid in about 90+ days or when the project is completed, which ever is longer.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#16]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#14] 4 May 2005
Sei,
Thank you for your input. I think it might be a worthwhile investment too....so many niches.....it's hard to know which one will pan out. I think I will check with a couple of more sign shops and see what the demand really is.
As for the architect, right after the break every legal rule comment....I would have a comment that would end in ".... OFF!"
Simple and to the point..
Thanks
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17]
4 May 2005
To: JHayes55 [#12] 4 May 2005
Joe,
It was great to talk to you yesterday also....again, thank you. I appreciate your time.
As for Outsourcing..... I AM the out source. This job is through a sign shop that is bidding the job. Normally THEY send the job to the mainland to have it done. This tells me that no one in the Islands is doing ADA signage, this further makes me think there is a niche here that would be worth the investment of time, equpiment and materials.
A little more research is necessary before I jump in but I think it might be a good move.
Thanks
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18]
4 May 2005
To: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#11] 4 May 2005
Jim
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I have a couple of irons in the fire that hopefully will result in a "mechanical" engraver. I am assuming by "mechanical" you are referring to a computerized engraver? Something from New Hermes, Gravograph or Xenetech?
Also, I had thought that ADA signage ALL had to be engraved to get the raised letters and braille settings. How does the screen printing and vinyl cutting enter into it? I have a relationship with a couple of local sign shops ( one is my neighbor) so vinyl cutting would not be tough, and I do know of a couple of screen printers.
Yes, I am trying to find my way here, so to a degree I am letting the market "inspire" me, until I get a couple of irons out of the fire. My reasoning for doing so, is that I want to be diversified because of the lulls, plus being on an Island in the middle of the Pacific, doesn't lend it'self well to the long reach one can have on the mainland.
I hope that makes sense, but Jim, you have given me pause and food for thought, which is a good thing.
Thank you
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#19]
4 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#16] 4 May 2005
What you can do without upsetting the architect is clearly explain the guidelines and why they are in violation. Then get him to sign a letter stating that he has been informed, but wishes to proceed against your recommendation. This makes him liable if the signs need to be redone, not you.
What was mentioned by someone else regarding vinyl cutters and such wasn't so much involved in ADA signs so much as the other signs that go along with them in a complete wayfinding package. This can include dimensional letters, exterior post and panel signs, all sorts. But if you have people coming to you solely for the ADA package, you might be able to avoid getting trapped in the rest of it.
Oh, and if there's no one doing ADA signs on the Islands... it might be time for me to move... ;)
Sei
From: JHayes55 [#20]
4 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#19] 5 May 2005
Sei-
I never said that I like the architects :). Your post was great!
I have dealt with several
architects over the last few years - most are a little stange - but a few
are good folks. I had one in shop yesterday that brought me a nice
piece of business. We have done work for him before and he trusts us to
do what is right, great guy.
We do the awards each year for the local Architects Assoc. - They always
select something strange and are always slow getting me paid.
After learning this my price adjusted according to their attitude and speed
of pay.
Joe
From: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#21]
4 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 5 May 2005
Chuck,
When I said, mechanical engraver I did mean a computerized rotary engraver. If you are looking at buying a new system with the intention of making Braille signs, you should consider the Quest engraver from Quality One Engravers. They can make it for you with a "sort of" dual spindle set up, where one spindle will drill the hole for the Braille and it also has a separate attachment that will hold an Autoraster for installing the raster beads into the holes. In addition to that, it is an extremely well built machine. I would also consider Xenetech since they are a very good company with an excellent product and top quality customer support.
I seem to disagree with some about what an ADA sign is. It is any sign that is in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. For room signs, this means raised letters and Braille. But, directional and informational signs also need to be ADA compliant even though they do not require raised letters and Braille. For example, any informational or directional sign mounted more than 120 inches from the ground that has a minimum viewing distance in excess of 21 feet requires the letter height to be 3 inches plus 1/8 inch for every foot of viewing distance beyond 21 feet. So any sign than conforms to this standard is an ADA sign. That is why I wrote earlier that you would need access to things like vinyl letters, screen printing, dimensional letters, etc., if you want to get into the ADA sign business. However, the ADA is just the start. There are also state and local codes that will dictate additional requirements for some signs. Then there is the National Fire Protection Association's Life Safety Code. I am by no means an expert on this, but especially for buildings 6 stories and taller, there are very specific requirements for stairwell signs and directional signs along emergency egress routes. There is probably more that I am not aware of, but your local fire department or building inspector may be able to point you in the right direction for finding out all the sign requirements.
Since you current customer is another sign shop, they will likely only need you to make the Braille signs. However, if you get into this area of business, you will eventually want to start selling directly to places like hospitals, hotels, office buildings, schools, etc., and then you will need to know what all the requirements are.
Jim
From: gt350ed [#22]
5 May 2005
To: ALL
Chuck and ALL: Hey buddy! You certainly are exposing yourself to interesting opportunities. But be patient and only seriously pursue those that you can do and/or manage successfully. Cause, if you don't do it correctly as promised, you'll do yourself more harm than good. Remember, you're in the Islands. A bad reputation will get around. Then what?
Anyway, you have received very valuable feedback here; particularly from Jim and Sei. Without addressing the value of the Accent Sign Co. ADA manual (and I'm sure it has value), virtually EVERYTHING mentioned here in reply to your thread, we came up with in conducting research on the internet for a project "opportunity" we had come our way.
Ultimately, we passed on the opportunity for multiple reasons. Mainly, it was because we were (are) so busy. Even outsourcing was going to be a time-consuming challenge because you are still the customer's "main guy" and there are SO MANY nuances to be aware of in speaking the language and walking the walk.
In the end, it all comes down to what it is you want to be. With our equipment, we might have the "technical" capability to pull off "signage'. Maybe even ADA signage. But it is a whole other world with a considerable learning curve. We opted to focus on what we are making money on NOW, based on what we've learned so far. Maybe when we are a LOT bigger and considerably more successful, we'll revisit this end of the marking and visual graphics industry. Maybe we'll have a sign division within the company. But not now. There are too many other ways to use our equipment within the confines of our gained "expertise" to date.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#23]
6 May 2005
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#14] 6 May 2005
Sei - which part of your conversation with the architect isn't correct? It all sounded like the conversations we get here with them. Did you forget about the color combination matches that match nothing in the universe, oh, and the comment about price being no object? Until you get the prices to them, and suddenly price is a big object.
Boy, I've sure learned to charge like a professional when dealing with architects. They respect nothing else.
I had a chuckle over your faux conversation, but it sounded real to me:)
Cindy M
From: Angie [#24]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#10] 12 May 2006
Chuck,
The ADA Signage Manual from Accent Signage is defeinately worth the $295. It is a compilation of Reuven Rahamim's knowlege, experience, and expertise throughout the signage industry for over 20 years. Can you really put a price on knowlege? Not only does the manual give you step by step instruction on how to create signage, but it also breaks down the laws and regulations. If you are wanting to get into the ADA business, your best bet is to understand the laws and regulations. The ADA signage manual has been written in a language that is easily read without legal jargon to sift through. There are so many other wonderful advantages of the manual and you would be at a great loss if you didn't invest the $295 into your signage business in Hawaii.
Please give me a call if you need more information. That's why we are here!
Angie
Accent Signage Systems, Inc.
612-377-9156
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#25]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 12 May 2006
Chuck, I'm not a signmaker and know nothing about ADA signs beyond what I've read here, but it sounds like there's a lot of details involved.
Something you might want to ponder before jumping into it is: If there are a lot of signmakers on the islands, and none of them do ADA signs themselves... why not? Is it just because they don't own the right tools? Or is it because learning all the details and keeping them straight is too big a job for them? Or because any simple mistake or omission might make them liable (as the "expert") for the cost of redoing a massive number of signs on a large job? Or can they get it done so cheap on the mainland that you might not make a profit trying to match (or beat) the prices they are getting now?
I don't know the answer. I'm just pushing the question out there for you to think about.
From: sprinter [#26]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 12 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#27]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17] 12 May 2006
Aloha Chuck.
There were several sign companies on Oahu making tactile ADA signage; Hawaiian Sign and Creative Signs & Design, at least in 1998 when I arrived here. I have no idea if either has stayed with in house fabrication or not. Creative Signs brought me to Hawaii to manage their interior signage production. Long story... I owned an interior architectural sign company in the Midwest for 23 years. I was heavily involved with making ADA compliant signage in-house from 1992 until I relocated to Hawaii in 1998. Its tedious brudda!
Everything you've read here regarding the complexity of the law itself, dealing with architects (I called them design Nazis) and tedious fabrication is all true. Manufacturing tactile signage is probably the single biggest PIA in the sign industry and very hard to make good profit on due to the initial set up cost of equipment and the labor intensive requirements of making the product.
At the time I was making ADA signage, there were really only three processes available that produced a clean enough looking brailled sign that architects and designers would accept. The raster method of drilling holes and inserting beads, photo etch and an embossed lexan process. I believe the embossed process has since gone out of existence. Plus keep in mind that most times you'd be required to custom paint the product. There's really not that much call for using off the shelf substrates like acrylic for ADA sign systems. And so you will need a spray booth as well as equipment to make tactile lettering and Braille.
The ADA was modified in 1999 I believe with a lessening of some of the original requirements for background color and contrast on a tactile sign. Many designers are now designing a 2-part sign with a tactile area and a more creatively designed background for the "visual part" of the sign. (You've seen it here, lots of Plumeria, Hybiscis, Palm frond design elements on a sign). Many designers also call out custom shape now. That opens up an entirely new Pandora's Box! Means that somewhere along the way you will be required to custom route shape and back screen print designs on non-glare acrylic and/or make a clear acrylic insert type of sign that the customer can insert printed designs and copy into. So add custom routing and screen printing into the mix.
And your product better look as finished as signage from one of the national sign companies or the architect will reject it. I'd recommend going to a couple of high end resorts in Wailea or Kaanapali to see what the product you're considering making must conform to. If you think you can match this type of product, then go for it.
But don't even think about getting into this without buying something like the $300 Accent Sign reference manual. You will be required to be well versed in all aspects of the ADA as it relates to signage. This is much more complex with so much more responsibility and liability for the fabricator than running a vinyl banner shop or engraving shop ever was for example.
And please consider this: we in Hawaii pay 25% more than sign manufacturers on the mainland for raw materials due to shipping. Add the time and labor required to make a series of 25-200 signs on contract, especially if you're a sub-contractor selling wholesale, and I think you can begin understanding why so many of these contracts are sent back to the Mainland for fabrication. In the end its cheaper than trying to set up to do it here. I'd suggest you save the $30,000+ it would take you to get set up and walk away. You can't make any money as a sub with this product.
Sorry we missed connecting a few weeks back when you called. Please call again or send me a PM with your number. I lost the info you sent.
EDITED: 12 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28]
12 May 2006
To: ALL
Hi Gang....
Thanks for all the information....I have NO idea how this thread came to be in focus again, because I had given up the idea of ADA signage a long time ago, BUT, thank you all for your input in reinforcing that it was the right thing to do....
American Pacific Awards...is developing it's own focus and taking on a life of it's own...which is ok with me :)
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#29]
12 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28] 12 May 2006
Doh!
I think I helped contribute here Chuck. I've just started visiting here again, saw this ADA post (an area I'm familiar with) saw the time stamp which looked current.....except that it was 2005 and not 2006.
I'm really glad you abandoned this idea. Tactile sign fab is a huge pain in the keester.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30]
12 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#29] 13 May 2006
Mike,
I know, first-hand, that one man's pain in the keester, is another's inroad to job security and a unique niche. :-)
EDITED: 12 May 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#31]
13 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30] 13 May 2006
very true Dave. I carved out the interior architectural signage niche for myself and pretty much owned the market in Omaha and surrounds for many years. Omaha is one of those strange places that defies simple logic. There are a number of International Fortune 500 companies headquartered there like ConAgra for example, the Union Pacific Railroad. All have huge campus complexes of buildings employing thousands, all needed signage on an ongoing basis. Add a huge insurance industry, Mutual of Omaha, Physicians Mutual and several of the world's largest architectural/engineering design firms like Leo A Daly and it was a good place to have a niche and be noticed. One of my accounts was USWest. I got plugged into them when they were headquartered in Omaha as Northwestern Bell. After the consolidation of all the baby Bells in the late 80's, I ended up supplying interior signage to most of their properties in a 14 state region. I probably made 20,000 tactile signs and other ADA compliant signage for them over 10 years. I never wanted for lucrative high-end projects. I have work installed from Pacso, Washington to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and points between....
....end of credential rant.......just trying to let prople know that I do understand this product and market.
It is doable. The point I was trying to drive home is that getting involved with ADA compliant tactile signs is more involved than drilling holes and inserting beads. Much more involved than a typical engraving job. But if someone is up to the challenge and sees a way in, Go for it!
EDITED: 13 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32]
13 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#31] 13 May 2006
I understand what you're saying.
As much as I've created a niche, in taking on unusual engraving tasks, it's not something I would recommend to most people.
Similar to learning the intricacies of ADA signage protocol, it's not for everyone.
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