Full Version: Braille anyone?

From: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#1]
 4 May 2005
To: ALL

So I'm looking for someone else that does Braille signs. We are getting our equipment in the next couple of weeks, I believe, and I need to figure out how to price this stuff. Do you do it hourly? Per letter? I have no idea on that part of it. Also I'm looking for anyone else that does it and might be interested in my extra work as time goes by. I'm only one person and can only make so many signs at one time so I'd like to pass it on to those interested when I can't do it.

From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#2]
 4 May 2005
To: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#1] 5 May 2005

Kate,
If I may ask, what equipment did you get to produce the braille signs? I may be needing to get it myself.
I would be happy to help you when you get overloaded, BUT, I'm way far away....

Thanks

From: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#3]
 5 May 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#2] 5 May 2005

Oh no, sorry I haven't gotten my system yet. Probably about two weeks they say. I am ordering the raster braille I think it's called, or actually that's what someone is ordering for me. I'll let you know what I got coming, the part that would kill us with you is the shipping! : ) I'll let you know all the details once I'm fully into it. I'm actually very excited to start doing braille. Hopefully it goes well and brings in more business!

From: sprinter [#4]
 5 May 2005
To: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#3] 6 May 2005

If you are planning for ADA signage to be a money maker for your shop, you will be one of the first. I used to be a dealer for the rastor braille system, which is the best way to go and sold a lot of units. But I can't honestly say any of my customers made any money doing ADA signage. Most companies that even bother compling to ADA standards can buy the signage from stock industrial supliers at a fraction of the cost of what it costs you in time and material.

Another problem is everyone assumed most companies would comply with the law, and that has not happened, the law has no bite and if a company is cited all they have to do is show an effort on their part that they "are working on a plan" to comply.

Your best bet is to farm it out or just buy the stock signs for a couple of bucks from a industrial supply house.

EDITED: 5 May 2005 by SPRINTER

From: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#5]
 6 May 2005
To: sprinter [#4] 6 May 2005

Actually it's not really ada signage that we do. The Braille is only a minor step in the shop, but the company we work with wants us to do it in house, that way it gets done in the time we say it gets done. I'm not really looking to make money on that end, but if I can offer it all the better. This isn't just a job for me, it's a hobby. I love what I do and the more I can learn and figure out and do, the happier I am. Art is my first love. And to me this is a form of art. That's why I'm offering to do it. The industrial supplied signs aren't the kind we are looking to sell, they are made cheap and quick, our customer wants style but yet wants to cater to a large group of people, being able to add Braille to signage really says a lot about our company. And actually our reputation has gone way up since people have found out I am willing to offer this. So it helps in all areas. A friend of mine has a blind child, and my aunt teaches blind children in Bolivia. To be able to do this myself and makes things for them is a reward in itself, but I have decided not only will I do it, but I'd also like to learn the language myself, it's interesting. An expensive hobby, but when someone else is buying the system for me I might as well get all the use out of it that I can.

From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#6]
 6 May 2005
To: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#5] 6 May 2005

Years ago I made a braille font for the Dahlgren Wizard. At that time I sold many keychains.

I came up with a braille keychain and offered it. To test the system, I ran into a person escorting a child from a home for the blind. I made him a keychain for free as advertising. He said it was correct and liked it. I never sold a braille keychain in the next few years.

If you feel that you need to get into braille, maybe you can find someone willing to part with a system cheap. See prior post, maybe you can get a few leads.

 

From: Angie [#7]
 12 May 2006
To: D-zines (X-TREMEGRAPHICS) [#1] 12 May 2006

Kate,

I know that you have been in contact with Accent Signage about becoming licensed to do Raster Braille in house. That is great! You are heading in the right path. If you are needing some help on a job that you are bidding, we can help you as well. Call us about outsourcing your Raster Braille signage job.

Ask for Lee, he's the guy you need!

Angie
Accent Signage Systems, Inc.
612-377-9156

Message 1264.8 was deleted

From: Zonas [#9]
 16 May 2006
To: Angie [#7] 19 May 2006

"I know that you have been in contact with Accent Signage about becoming licensed to do Raster Braille in house. That is great! You are heading in the right path. If you are needing some help on a job that you are bidding, we can help you as well. Call us about outsourcing your Raster Braille signage job."

This totally confuses me and upsets me. I'm sure you think it's great (more $ for company), but why in the first part of your response you think it's great to purchase the Raster system (when I bought mine years ago it was $1600.00) then say "call us about outsourcing your signage job". Since your company is now pushing the outsourcing to architects, contractors, etc., why should anybody consider purchasing the raster system if they are going to have to compete against your company when bidding jobs?

Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations

From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#10]
 16 May 2006
To: sprinter [#4] 16 May 2006

You are right on when saying "everyone assumed most companies would comply with the law". Trouble is there are ways to get around this law and still be totally legal in doing it.

One of the hospitals I have been providing signs for (think it's about 15 years now) uses the "this is not a permanent room" rule so gets out of having to have braille on "most" of their signs. Most hospitals have changes going on constantly so can get away with it. Not to sure on any other business, just this hospital (and about 4 of their others) so just my opinion from what I'm use to.

I do have the raster braille system and made a lot of money off of it before they figured out how to do away with most of the braille requirements. Haven't made one braille sign in at least 5 years now, probably longer if I took the time to look it up.


Puck

EDITED: 18 May 2006 by PUCKERBRUSH

From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#11]
 16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#10] 16 May 2006

quote:
The hospital I have been providing signs for (think it's about 15 years now) uses the "this is not a permanent room" rule so gets out of having to have braille on "most" of their signs. Most hospitals have changes going on constantly so can get away with it.


Man, I step away from the sign industry for a few years and ADA compliance simply goes all to Hell... ;-) 

Puck, your hospital account administrator is dead wrong here on several basic points. You should educate them.

The ADA is CIVIL RIGHTS legislation designed to give handicapped individuals equal access to public space and services ON THEIR OWN. A hospital of all places should be trying to conform to the spirit and intent of the law, not trying to sidestep the law to save a few bucks. Your customer's understanding of the ADA is an eroneous interpretation of the law that makes it harder for sight impared individuals to find their way around their facility. They are in fact discriminating against their legally blind patients.

What the ADA actually says about room ID is:

If any sign goes up describing room use, it must be tactile with raised lettering and Class II Braille so a legally blind person can find it on his own.

The "not a permanent room use" exception is actually designed to cover a situation where a room might have different uses that change frequently. For example, "Room 112 / Waiting Room" might become, "Room 112 / Class Room" at night. Maybe entrance door "112" leads into a space with 20 other services. Either way, a blind person still needs to get to room 112 on his own. And so the ADA has more or less evolved to suggest that the copy, "Waiting Room" & "Class Room" doesn't need to be tactile on the sign as it's secondary information and changes frequently....BUT the sign still has to have some way for a blind person to find his way to Room 112. The accepted solution? A two part sign, one part tactile the other visual.

Most designers and building managers have by this point in time come to acknowledge this simple concept and order a two part sign, one part tactile (permanent room number) the other changeable part of the descriptor being visual and not tactile. The visual part is usually made with an insert or sliding tab that can be changed as required.

The only other thing this hospital can do legally is not put up any sign at all. But if they are signing a space, the above does apply. Maybe they won't be taken to trial and fined but they are doing no service for their many sight impared patients who visit daily. The ADA is a law designed to empower handicapped people. Its a good thing.

I had an architectural sign company on the Mainland for many years. The sales pitch I would make to commercial property owners was, "why would you choose to alienate 30% of your potential clientel?" I would then see the light bulb go off over their heads. The ADA is widely viewed as unnecessary federal legislation that only serves to add cost to basic operations but when you look at the intent of the law, it makes perfect sense and your clients should be happy to comply.

Think about it this way. What if you went to a strange, new hospital trying to find a service but all the signs were printed in Chinese or Braille only? How would you feel? You'd be pissed at the ineptitude of the hospital for making your visit difficult. Same applies to sight impared individuals.

Hope this makes sense. Its also a good primer as to why one shouldn't get into brailled signs unless they're willing to go all the way in understanding the code. It ain't just about adding Braille to a sign.

EDITED: 16 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL

From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#12]
 16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#11] 16 May 2006

Mike,

I don't dispute any thing you said but I can tell you it's out of my hands and I don't have a say in what they do. I can suggest but they don't have to listen, and they don't.

I supplied them with braille articles/laws don't think it did any good.

I know the last braille I did for them was to bring it all up to code and haven't done another braille sign since then. Guess they wait until they are told to bring it all up to code again. Would be nice if they have to since there is a lot of signage I'd be re-doing or fixing.

Other than that I just do signs to what they order.

Puck

From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#13]
 16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#12] 16 May 2006

Puck, you're liable man. You can decline orders or get a written statement exhonerating you from culpability in advance.

If this hospital is ever sued for non-compliance, who do you think will be included in the suit? The signage manufacturer today is as culpable as the client. Beware!

EDITED: 17 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL

From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#14]
 16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#13] 16 May 2006

Hmmm...I'll check that out.

So what your saying is, if I take a phone order, fax, etc. for a sign, make that sign, ship that sign and they place that sign up where they want it that I will be liable because I didn't make a ADA sign which was not ordered? How am I suppose to know when making a sign if it has to be ADA? Wouldn't from what your saying mean that every sign I make be it for a school, hospital, service station, electrical company, etc all have to be ADA then?

Just asking since you seem to be pretty determined with this ADA signage stuff. Picking your brain for more information specially since I'm getting ready to pitch a whole new sign system for them.

I'm thinking this is one of the reasons I never went any further with doing ADA signs than I had to................


Puck

From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15]
 16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#14] 16 May 2006

quote:
Wouldn't from what your saying mean that every sign I make be it for a school, hospital, service station, electrical company, etc all have to be ADA then?


Yes.

That's the law today. Its all about accessibility for handicapped people. The era of design it as you want for visually oriented readers is over. Actually it's been over since 1992. Handicapped people want to get around places just like you and I. Can you blame them?

But please read my other posts again. There is a marketing angle here that can make you money, create a niche market for you.

It sounds like no one in Idaho understands this code very well. Learn it yourself and promote with just the right amount of scare tactics.

EDITED: 17 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL

From: sprinter [#16]
 16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15] 17 May 2006

It may be law, but one of those laws that rarely is enforced. It has been proposed at least 7 times to rewrite it since 1992 and nothing has been done. OSHA doesn't enforce it, states don't enforce it, local inspectors don't enforce it. The real problem is who enforces it or better yet who do you report it to? With all the governmental cutbacks, it seems ADA has fallen in the cracks or has been swept under the rug. It's really a shame, the law had some merits, but from day one enforcement has been a grey area that was never funded or resolved. Some states and local governments have changed some building codes for accessibility for the handicapped, but most have not added requirements for signage.

EDITED: 16 May 2006 by SPRINTER

From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#17]
 16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15] 17 May 2006

To close to retiring to do another big niche like that but maybe this thread will get some others to thinking about it.

Guess I'll push a little harder for that new sign system, one I can just order pre-made thats already ADA set up.

Puck

From: Button (LASERCHICK) [#18]
 16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#17] 17 May 2006

Puck,
Where are you at in Idaho? I am in Pocatello and just starting to do ADA signage.

From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#19]
 17 May 2006
To: Button (LASERCHICK) [#18] 17 May 2006

Hi! We're not to far apart, I'm close to Boise for now. Should be here about another year and then moving up close to Council/Tamarack (spelling?) area.

Puck

From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#20]
 17 May 2006
To: sprinter [#16] 17 May 2006

A sad commentary actually. We have become a country that does things only if we feel we'll be penalized if we don't, not because its the right thing to do.....

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