Full Version: Braille anyone?
From: Zonas [#9]
16 May 2006
To: Angie [#7] 19 May 2006
"I know that you have been in contact with Accent Signage about becoming licensed to do Raster Braille in house. That is great! You are heading in the right path. If you are needing some help on a job that you are bidding, we can help you as well. Call us about outsourcing your Raster Braille signage job."
This totally confuses me and upsets me. I'm sure you think it's great (more $ for company), but why in the first part of your response you think it's great to purchase the Raster system (when I bought mine years ago it was $1600.00) then say "call us about outsourcing your signage job". Since your company is now pushing the outsourcing to architects, contractors, etc., why should anybody consider purchasing the raster system if they are going to have to compete against your company when bidding jobs?
Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#10]
16 May 2006
To: sprinter [#4] 16 May 2006
You are right on when saying "everyone assumed most companies would comply with the law". Trouble is there are ways to get around this law and still be totally legal in doing it.
One of the hospitals I have been providing signs for (think it's about 15 years now) uses the "this is not a permanent room" rule so gets out of having to have braille on "most" of their signs. Most hospitals have changes going on constantly so can get away with it. Not to sure on any other business, just this hospital (and about 4 of their others) so just my opinion from what I'm use to.
I do have the raster braille system and made a lot of money off of it before they figured out how to do away with most of the braille requirements. Haven't made one braille sign in at least 5 years now, probably longer if I took the time to look it up.
Puck
EDITED: 18 May 2006 by PUCKERBRUSH
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#11]
16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#10] 16 May 2006
Man, I step away from the sign industry for a few years and ADA compliance simply goes all to Hell... ;-)
Puck, your hospital account administrator is dead wrong here on several basic points. You should educate them.
The ADA is CIVIL RIGHTS legislation designed to give handicapped individuals equal access to public space and services ON THEIR OWN. A hospital of all places should be trying to conform to the spirit and intent of the law, not trying to sidestep the law to save a few bucks. Your customer's understanding of the ADA is an eroneous interpretation of the law that makes it harder for sight impared individuals to find their way around their facility. They are in fact discriminating against their legally blind patients.
What the ADA actually says about room ID is:
If any sign goes up describing room use, it must be tactile with raised lettering and Class II Braille so a legally blind person can find it on his own.
The "not a permanent room use" exception is actually designed to cover a situation where a room might have different uses that change frequently. For example, "Room 112 / Waiting Room" might become, "Room 112 / Class Room" at night. Maybe entrance door "112" leads into a space with 20 other services. Either way, a blind person still needs to get to room 112 on his own. And so the ADA has more or less evolved to suggest that the copy, "Waiting Room" & "Class Room" doesn't need to be tactile on the sign as it's secondary information and changes frequently....BUT the sign still has to have some way for a blind person to find his way to Room 112. The accepted solution? A two part sign, one part tactile the other visual.
Most designers and building managers have by this point in time come to acknowledge this simple concept and order a two part sign, one part tactile (permanent room number) the other changeable part of the descriptor being visual and not tactile. The visual part is usually made with an insert or sliding tab that can be changed as required.
The only other thing this hospital can do legally is not put up any sign at all. But if they are signing a space, the above does apply. Maybe they won't be taken to trial and fined but they are doing no service for their many sight impared patients who visit daily. The ADA is a law designed to empower handicapped people. Its a good thing.
I had an architectural sign company on the Mainland for many years. The sales pitch I would make to commercial property owners was, "why would you choose to alienate 30% of your potential clientel?" I would then see the light bulb go off over their heads. The ADA is widely viewed as unnecessary federal legislation that only serves to add cost to basic operations but when you look at the intent of the law, it makes perfect sense and your clients should be happy to comply.
Think about it this way. What if you went to a strange, new hospital trying to find a service but all the signs were printed in Chinese or Braille only? How would you feel? You'd be pissed at the ineptitude of the hospital for making your visit difficult. Same applies to sight impared individuals.
Hope this makes sense. Its also a good primer as to why one shouldn't get into brailled signs unless they're willing to go all the way in understanding the code. It ain't just about adding Braille to a sign.
EDITED: 16 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#12]
16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#11] 16 May 2006
I don't dispute any thing you said but I can tell you it's out of my hands and I don't have a say in what they do. I can suggest but they don't have to listen, and they don't.
I supplied them with braille articles/laws don't think it did any good.
I know the last braille I did for them was to bring it all up to code and haven't done another braille sign since then. Guess they wait until they are told to bring it all up to code again. Would be nice if they have to since there is a lot of signage I'd be re-doing or fixing.
Other than that I just do signs to what they order.
Puck
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#13]
16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#12] 16 May 2006
Puck, you're liable man. You can decline orders or get a written statement exhonerating you from culpability in advance.
If this hospital is ever sued for non-compliance, who do you think will be included in the suit? The signage manufacturer today is as culpable as the client. Beware!
EDITED: 17 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#14]
16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#13] 16 May 2006
Hmmm...I'll check that out.
So what your saying is, if I take a phone order, fax, etc. for a sign, make that sign, ship that sign and they place that sign up where they want it that I will be liable because I didn't make a ADA sign which was not ordered? How am I suppose to know when making a sign if it has to be ADA? Wouldn't from what your saying mean that every sign I make be it for a school, hospital, service station, electrical company, etc all have to be ADA then?
Just asking since you seem to be pretty determined with this ADA signage stuff. Picking your brain for more information specially since I'm getting ready to pitch a whole new sign system for them.
I'm thinking this is one of the reasons I never went any further with doing ADA signs than I had to................
Puck
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15]
16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#14] 16 May 2006
Yes.
That's the law today. Its all about accessibility for handicapped people. The era of design it as you want for visually oriented readers is over. Actually it's been over since 1992. Handicapped people want to get around places just like you and I. Can you blame them?
But please read my other posts again. There is a marketing angle here that can make you money, create a niche market for you.
It sounds like no one in Idaho understands this code very well. Learn it yourself and promote with just the right amount of scare tactics.
EDITED: 17 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: sprinter [#16]
16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15] 17 May 2006
EDITED: 16 May 2006 by SPRINTER
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#17]
16 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#15] 17 May 2006
To close to retiring to do another big niche like that but maybe this thread will get some others to thinking about it.
Guess I'll push a little harder for that new sign system, one I can just order pre-made thats already ADA set up.
Puck
From: Button (LASERCHICK) [#18]
16 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#17] 17 May 2006
Puck,
Where are you at in Idaho? I am in Pocatello and just starting to do ADA signage.
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#19]
17 May 2006
To: Button (LASERCHICK) [#18] 17 May 2006
Hi! We're not to far apart, I'm close to Boise for now. Should be here about another year and then moving up close to Council/Tamarack (spelling?) area.
Puck
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#20]
17 May 2006
To: sprinter [#16] 17 May 2006
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#21]
17 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#20] 17 May 2006
From: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#22]
17 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#20] 17 May 2006
Just wanted you to know that I took care of it today and the ball is rolling for them to come up to ADA standards.
Puck
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#23]
17 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#21] 18 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#24]
17 May 2006
To: Puck (PUCKERBRUSH) [#22] 18 May 2006
Good for you Puck.
You know, all the years I was in business selling ADA compliant signage I mumbled and complained about it too. That $50 vinyl lettered room sign became a much more difficult and expensive sign to manufacture overnight in 1992. But if you really think about what this code means and what it does, you can't help but appreciate it.
The next step though is making a business plan adjustment that accomodates a higher price point for such mandated signage. Its a win/win situation in my book. Legally blind individuals end up with signage they can read and you end up with greater profit margins.
Its still a PIA to fabricate but what the hey?
From: UncleSteve [#25]
18 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#24] 18 May 2006
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#26]
18 May 2006
To: UncleSteve [#25] 18 May 2006
From: Zonas [#27]
18 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#24] 18 May 2006
YES! My previous job was computer specialist with a hospital. One job I took on was setting up a computer for a blind lady that typed transcripts. Having to put myself in 'her place' and get everything set up was a very awaking experience. We worked together making metal 'stickers' to place on special keys, buttons, etc. When done she became one of the fastest (with least errors too) transcripers on staff. Everytime I make a braille sign I think of her and comments she made to me while working together. I support the ADA for helping to make the world more accessible to everyone. I enjoy doing braille signs, even though they are time consuming, they are profitable.
Zona
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#28]
18 May 2006
To: Zonas [#27] 18 May 2006
Now thats an inspirational story Zona. I felt much the same way about it all. The ADA actually helped expand my consciousness.
I had one hospital administrator tell me that rather than modify their sign system they'd just have some candystriper (high school aid) lead a sight impared person to where they needed to go. Made sense to a bureaucrat I suppose but handicapped people don't like or want that. They want to be empowered to do it themselves like everyone else. The ADA simply makes sense and its the right thing to do.
end of morality rant.....we now return to your regularly scheduled program.......