Full Version: Difficult or Impossible?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1]
20 Jul 2004
To: ALL
I have a job which I usually have silkscreened. Typically, I use an 11 pt. Helvetica bold letter.
Now, I have an application where the lettering will have to go over a curved surface. From a flat top to a vertical edge. Not possible with silkscreen.
I know that vinyl people don't like to deal with lettering much smaller than 1/4".
Is 11 pt. vinyl lettering possible or simply difficult?
Also, if possible, I need to create a radial dial with small lines pointing to letters. I can do this with silkscreen, but I'd rather not mix processes. The dials and lettering will be on the same piece.
Thanks,
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Rallyguy [#2]
20 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1] 20 Jul 2004
David,
There are times that we can silkscreen on a mild curve...Another option is forming after screening/engraving. Can I see a picture of what you are talking about?
Brian G.
EDITED: 20 Jul 2004 by RALLYGUY
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3]
20 Jul 2004
To: Rallyguy [#2] 21 Jul 2004
Brian,
This isn't a mild curve. It goes from flat horizontal, to flat vertical, with about 3/8" radius transition.
To further complicate things, the substrate is about 4 ft. long and made of wood. It's an arm rest for a limousine, which will have 8 places for control switches marked.
I tried to talk the customer into vertical placement of the lettering, next to the switches, but he's adamant about wanting the lettering to read horizontally.
Lifetsyles of the rich and famous.
If anyone thinks they can do this job, it's a 4-alarm fire drill and has to be finished in a couple of days. The only good news, is that price isn't an object.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Rallyguy [#4]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 21 Jul 2004
That is definitely beyond the physics of screen printing ;)
Thanks for the clarification,
Brian
From: JHayes55 [#5]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#3] 21 Jul 2004
David not impossible, but very, very hard. Why not have someone laser cut letters out of ADA type applique rather than use vinyl.
The size your asking for will make cutting and weeding hard but I also have a concern about there being enough adhesive to allow the
letters stick long term. With fingers and hands rubbing over the letters there is a good chance they might rub up. Are tags like flexy or the
ultra thin engraveable material an option?
Good Luck and let me know if I can help
Joe
EDITED: 21 Jul 2004 by JHAYES55
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
21 Jul 2004
To: JHayes55 [#5] 21 Jul 2004
Joe,
The entire panel will be covered with resin after letter application, so human contact won't be an issue. The end result is a high gloss burl, as you would find in a Rolls Royce.
I share your concern over whether enough adhesive will be available and also what effect the resin may have on the vinyl.
The word "Partition" is the longest line. If you're up to joining the experiment let me know. If you do, make it worth your while.
Thanks,
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 21 Jul 2004
Exactly what goes over the curve? Could it be a mixed process with lettering on the horizontal and vertical with indicator lines around the curve? Just hoping.
As you know I am a raw novice with vinyl, do not even have it on display yet, but tested some small stuff. I found a problem with the cutter that is almost fixed but it still needs more pressure than recommended. With that in mind, what I found on really small stuff is that the adhesive does not hold well enough on the release paper to stay there when the nose rubs across the tiny cuts. Also when you peel the adhesive tends to heal in the cut areas a slight bit, making weeding around a tiny item nearly impossible.
From: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#8]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 21 Jul 2004
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
21 Jul 2004
To: Jim (PUZZLEHEAD) [#8] 21 Jul 2004
I thought about that, but I'm not sure the look would be seamless enough. If the edge of the material wouldn't be noticeable, it could work.
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who says he's successfully cut .125 vinyl letters. The trick is using a rounded font, instead of one with square corners.
If the customer is going to dig his heels in on making the lettering go over the curve, I'll be just as adamant that we'll have to use a typeface that works.
Thank you for the suggestion.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: JHayes55 [#10]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9] 22 Jul 2004
David
Sound like you friend is on the right track - my next question to you would have been "what font".
Rounded fonts in this case would work best - also if you give the vinyl time before weeding it will shrink
a little from the cut area thus letting it weed much better. Another trick I heard was to put it in the refrigerator
overnight - I have not tried that one yet. Many of the programs offer an option to round all the fonts slightly. This works
great in many cases where you are cutting little letters and need a specific font - a little rounding helps.
If you friend has cut .125 successfully I am sure he will come through for you - if not let me know. I have cut some logos with
letters as small as .125 but - really hate it. :)
Good luck - keep us up to date on your progress.
Joe
From: Zonas [#11]
21 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 22 Jul 2004
I was just checking out your engraving forum and saw your posting. Caught my interest. Wanted to make sure I understand the 'facts'. The limo has a wood insert (on arm rest) that they want you to label switches on. After you are done they (or you) will cover with a resin (assuming high gloss). Couldn't you use any of the 1/32" thick material (I visualize a gold) cut and engrave, this thin of material bends very easy, if any shaping necessary use heat gun. Use any adhesive that will work with wood/plastic, then apply a thick resin coating that will give a smooth finish. Am I thinking to simple?
Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
22 Jul 2004
To: Zonas [#11] 22 Jul 2004
Zona,
It's not a wood insert. I just used "arm rest" as a descriptive term. It's kind of a combination arm rest/switch panel with a traverse rod for a curtain built into the right-hand side. The whole item is made of wood.
I see what you're saying about the thin engraving stock. It would probably work, except the look we're going for is printing right onto the wood.
After I've done my part on these projects, I never see the final installation. I have seen the completed silk screened panels and they're very impressive.
I spoke to the owner of the company yesterday. I said that the vinyl lettering should work, but mentioned the idea of the lettering wrapping around the curve of the arm rest may not be very easy to read.
The guy was very pragmatic. He said, "It's what the customer is requesting and we'll give him what he wants. If he doesn't like it, we'll make as many as he wants to pay for."
Makes sense to me :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
www.engravingetc.org
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13]
22 Jul 2004
To: JHayes55 [#10] 22 Jul 2004
Joe,
I'm happy to know you have a variety of tricks up your sleeve. Those are good suggestions.
Thank you for offering to try the job. Looks like my buddy is going to be able to do it. He'll REALLY be my buddy if he can :-)
I doubt he likes this kind of task any more than you do, but he seems to enjoy a challenge. I'll let you know how this one goes, and if possible, post some pics.
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14]
22 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 22 Jul 2004
David,
I guess this is another example of where the "Stunt" in Stunt Engraver comes from. I hope this turns out well for you!
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
22 Jul 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#14] 23 Jul 2004
David,
These are the kinds of jobs that I sink my teeth into. If I can't do it, I usually have someone who can.
A while back, I received (what I consider) a huge compliment from the owner of this company.
He said, "The reason we call you, is no matter what kind of marking challenge we present, you walk in and instantly know what to do."
What he doesn't know, is I have a secret weapon. Other than my own knowledge, I can draw on a vast pool of collective knowledge represented in the Engraving Etc. forum members.
Shhhhhh!
It's our secret :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Myyk [#16]
22 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15] 23 Jul 2004
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#17]
23 Jul 2004
To: Myyk [#16] 23 Jul 2004
One thing to consider with paint would be what sort of clearcoat they're using to seal the thing, and what chemicals are involved. We've had an issue in the past where we produced a rather nice, large wooden sign. When we clearcoated it, the solvents in the clear broke down the paint we'd used to fill the letters, leeching out streaks of color and ruining the piece.
Sei
From: Rallyguy [#18]
23 Jul 2004
To: Myyk [#16] 23 Jul 2004
This is an excellent suggestion............. You could apply the mask and take it to an automotive spray shop....they could shoot the color coat, remove the mask and clear coat with a basecoat/clearcoat system. It would be durable and look as good as an automotive finish.
Brian G.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19]
23 Jul 2004
To: Myyk [#16] 23 Jul 2004
Great minds (not mine) think alike.
When I went to drop the piece off to the vinyl guy, he was on an errand. I was in a hurry that day and couldn't wait around.
The silkscreener is close-by and I left the piece there. When the screener and vinyl person put their heads together, the "mask and paint" method came to mind.
This time around, we're proceeding with the vinyl lettering (I think).
I emailed, this morning, to see if the experiment was a success. Haven't heard back yet.
Thank you for your suggestion. It's a jewel :-)
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#20]
24 Jul 2004
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19] 24 Jul 2004
As evidenced by this photo, my friend, Greg Turner of Greenleaf Visual Image Group, in Pasadena, CA didn't think this job was impossible or particularly difficult.
He was able to cut .125 letters in Helvetica!!
David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
Port Hueneme, CA
EDITED: 24 Jul 2004 by DGL
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