Full Version: Geo. Knight DK20S - Watch Your Fingers
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#65]
12 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#62] 12 Mar 2006
Normally the best mechanical idea is to grab a horizontal bar that has two attachments, (or even a center one), is in the center so as not to put extra stress on the joints of the power transmission system.
If that is not so in this case, and they know about it, they should at least put red tape around the danger rod, or a spiral of yellow. Common sense, make a danger obvious. I had to put signs saying HOT around the platen of a press in the mall, or would not be allowed to have it there. Common sense is not so common. Reaction time when faced with an overcooked product would be helped with something that says 'do not grab here' by virtue of its color.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#66]
12 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#64] 12 Mar 2006
David,
You've missed the point. If your fingers are on the handles where they belong..... The handle to unit body clearence could be zero and you wouldn't/couldn't get pinched.
There is nothing wrong with the machine, and no reason to warn anybody of anything other than the obvious logic of closing it with your hands placed on the handles.
You weren't familiar with the machine, you "heaved" the handle down with your hand in the center when it should have been on the handles on the sides, and pinched your finger.
Now it's their fault why? Because they didn't protect you from yourself?
It's human nature to want to blame someone or something when things go wrong....I am not surprised that you reacted with anger, and effort to change what happened to you....Ultimately most people have better clarity when the anger subsides and they realize where the blame really lies. I just think in this case, when looking at all of the facts, that that blame is misplaced.
I wouldn't have as much issue with you stating that you had an accident with a piece of equipment and that you felt that it was something people might want to watch out for....Instead you went on attack......based on what you felt were multiple issues...this being the latest and greatest.
I'm sorry that you got hurt. I really am. I just assumed that cooler heads would see the situation more clearly as time went on. I feel that I am in the minority here....as it seems as if people want blood with this company. I actually think you should have more of a beef with the electical issues these presses have been said to have....If those claims are true, that is clearly a real safety hazzard. To me, your personal hand injury is from operator error. My opinion won't be changed based on the facts.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#67]
12 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#65] 13 Mar 2006
Honestly Harvey I have to agree with you here......I don't have a problem with suggesting a sticker or something simple to avoid the mistake that David had....My biggest issue is with the blame going soley on the company. Sure the design could be better....Labels would be handy (no pun intended). But the machine is not hazzardous as it stands if someone uses natural common sense.
I think that it is true that something can be said that common sense is not so common...and perhaps my frusteration is that the demise of common sense seems to be so real today....I guess I am unwilling to accept that fact, and in accepting David's argument would be agreeing with the fact that we should accept and even condone the demise of common sense. :)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#68]
12 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#66] 12 Mar 2006
Brian,
I'm happy to see that, as long as I'm not the person recommending a warning label, or some means of telling people, (since there's no other mention) that having their fingers in the unmarked danger zone of a DK20S, is something you can agree with.
I can't understand why you continue to presume my emotions. No embarrassment; no anger; just shock that an inherent design flaw, continues to go unmarked and unremedied.
Since you're a fan of the totally-unrelated "car door" anaology, why not answer the questions that you may have missed, the first time I posed them?
"If there were only one model of an automobile with the capability to crush a person's fingers, shouldn't that model be pointed out?"
"Even though common sense dictates that a person should keep their fingers away from a 400 deree heat platen, why do some heat press manufacturers place a label on their equipment stating so?"
EDITED: 12 Mar 2006 by DGL
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#69]
12 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#63] 12 Mar 2006
Hi Steve,
I am not trying to fight more than one battle with this thread. I am only taking the issue at hand on it's merit, not trying to say the company is acting in any particular way in sweeping terms.
I agree that in the past they have had electrical issues that seem to have gone un-resolved.....I can't back that statement up personaly because I have never even used a knight press let alone owned one, but there have been several factual instances of these types of problems...Frankly I feel that these problems are much more severe than what David is accusing them of with this situation. That type correction (if truely needed) is something that I could embrace.
All I care is that they don't get a bum rap for someone not using the equipment properly. It's clear that he used it the wrong way, he just doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions. He would rather blame the people that make the press. Yes a warning label would be a smart addition if people are consistantly pulling the handle down by the middle.....but again, it seems like common sense to me when the handle has foam handles on both sides....I guess I am just a throwback that believes you need to take responsibility for your own actions......I tend to be old fashioned in alot of ways....This must just be another of them. :)
From: UncleSteve [#70]
12 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#69] 12 Mar 2006
Nothing more or less.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#71]
12 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#70] 13 Mar 2006
Thanks,
Brian Genrich
Rallye Productions Inc.
1-800-236-2036 x112
Custom cut, or sheet stock Sublimatable metal,
Screen printing, and other digital print services.
EDITED: 12 Mar 2006 by RALLYGUY1
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#72]
12 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#68] 13 Mar 2006
Hi David,
believe that I said a label would be a nice idea....Not that it should be a requirement. I said that way back in this thread...It's not a new concept for me, nor does it matter that the delivery was from Harvey, had it been from you I would have felt the same way.
Regarding the car door analogy....In order for you to truely parallel the car door argument, the door would have to be designed to work with a handle that wasn't used, therefore causing the crushing of someone's fingers....Fault of the manufacturer or user? If you place your hands in a place that they aren't supposed to be with any mechanical equipment, no matter how good the design...... They can get hurt.
I honestly think that it's just hard for you to admit that you made a mistake at this point.
That's what this really comes down to. If you admit that you made a mistake, you have no grounds for a complaint....so instead...you blame the manufacture of the equipment for a faulty design. The design is fine. It's use was improper. You just can't admit it.
I think we are beginning to repeat ourselves again. A waste of our time, as well as the other forum members. Time to give it a break I guess...( Don't all thank me now ).
There's nothing wrong with a little healthy debate....I just think this one is out of gas. No new info, no new opinions....Same ole same ole..... ;)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#73]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#72] 13 Mar 2006
Brian,
Not at all.
I admit, I succumbed to the Geo. Knight advertising and made the mistake of believing that the pictures in the Geo. Knight ads, (of the DK20S), showing the handle in a horizontal position, of which, if the actual piece of equipment's handle came to rest in that position, would have presented zero chance of injury, no matter where a person's hands were placed on the handle area.
Q: Of the DK20S heat presses I've seen in person, how many handles stop in the position, as shown in their ads?
A: None.
Q: Of the DK20S heat presses I've seen in person, how many handles stop in a position, that leave enough clearance, between the handle and housing for a person's fingers not to be pinched?
A: Most of the machines I've seen in person, have the handle in direct contact with the top of the housing; except for one and that was at the NBM Show in Long Beach, CA, in the Geo. Knight booth, shortly after I brought my complaint to Aaron Knight himself, in an email.
That day, I was at a booth across the aisle from Geo. Knight and saw Aaron in his booth. When I made my way to the Geo. Knight booth, to discuss my situation, nobody was there.
Isn't the fact that people who use the press in the "proper" fashion, and still have their fingers nipped, enough to warrant a safety label?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#74]
13 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#73] 13 Mar 2006
It's a shame that you should have such a hard time admitting that you put your hands where they weren't supposed to be. I mean it's really nothing more than that. Pictures of clearance or not...The handles of the machine are not where you actuated the press. Had you used the handles, we wouldn't be wasting our time here.
Your thought process is exacly why this country finds itself mired in litigation.
"Protect the people from themselves, they can't possibly be smart enough to do it on thier own!"
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#75]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#74] 13 Mar 2006
This question wasn't hidden from view:
"Isn't the fact that people who use the press in the "proper" fashion, and still have their fingers nipped, enough to warrant a safety label?"
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76]
13 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#75] 13 Mar 2006
I can see very clearly that if you have your hands on the handles that you won't smash your fingers. Even with zero clearance...your hands are on a foam covered bar. Effectively buffering your fingers from damage of being crushed due to metal to metal contact. Yes even if it were possible that your finger might contact metal on one side, the foam covered bar would close on it....The foam would protect a finger from being crushed as it was in your instance. The only way to get a finger crushed would be to mistakenly have your hand on the metal bar between the handles as you did.
I guess we could require foam covered equpment from everyone for everybodys safety....Better yet!!!!! How about wearing a full coverage foam body condom similar to a ultra thick foam wet suit? Totaly safe in all cases....outside of heat exaustion problems...... :)
Sorry....just trying to lighten the mood up...
I have nothing new to add here. If you don't, how about we just stop....
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#77]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76] 13 Mar 2006
We found a point of agreement. Sticking to the facts is crucial, which is why this fact didn't escape my attention:
You're speaking in general terms, while I and the people I've spoken to, whose unsolicted comments, claim their fingers were nipped, while their hands were on the foam grips, are dealing with first-hand (so to speak) experience.
I'm going to send another e-mail to Aaron Knight. I'll let you know of his response.
From: UncleSteve [#78]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76] 13 Mar 2006
It seems obvious that David got his left hand caught in the poor wiring while closing the press with his right hand....
The horse is dead. It has been shipped off to Hormel to make dog food and the remains to Elmers to make glue.
Perhaps it IS time to bury the ears and let it go away....
Who is going to engrave the plaque to put on the horse's grave and what material will be used for the outdoor exposure? :S
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#79]
13 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#77] 13 Mar 2006
....I couldn't possibly use logic to form an opinion on what happened to you based on all of your former statements.......I'm the one with the faulty logic.
You crushed your finger by putting it in a place that it shouldn't have been and it's all Knights fault.
Sorry to have bothered everybody with my counterpoints.......
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#80]
13 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#78] 13 Mar 2006
I've made my final post on the subject at this time.
The horse was dead long before David brought it up again. Please leave that honor to him.
Thanks for your input........I wish more would have spoken out about how they felt.......Seems like no one cared....or we countered each other well enough for everyone. :)
Another excercise in futility.....................
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#81]
13 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I'd be surprised, to receive much more than a politically correct response, but I'll keep you updated, as more news becomes available.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82]
14 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I received a speedy reply from Aaron Knight.
According to Mr. Knight, the current production should already have the added handle clearance, but he'd have to check with the factory.
Regardless, he maintains that the design-is-the-design and doesn't represent a serious safety issue, or deserve designation as a design flaw.
In his words:
"I say this only because yours is the last incident."
To which I responded:
"To presume mine was the last incident, is based solely on your personal knowledge; and the fact that I've spoken to people with first-hand accounts of being nipped, while using your equipment properly, could be a precursor to future incidents."
In regard to equipment safety, Mr. Knight says this is an area the company actively pursues and improves upon.
"Rest assured, we're on it." says Aaron.
Aaron also said he trusts I'm not seeking to drag this issue too far into the realm of a crusade.
To which I replied:
"As far as a crusade, I'll take your reply at face value. If you're on it, I'm off it."
To which he replied:
"Oh, we're soooo on it!"
Let's hope that's the case. Of course, I'll keep you abreast of any new developments on this topic.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82] 14 Mar 2006
Next you can tackle the big three on their cars....but will they be safe with no doors?....
After that, you can push for a 5 point harness for everyone....as that would surely save lives....Then you may want to push for helmet requirements in cars as well......Beyond that you could fight for a 5 mph speed limit...That ought to reduce automobile related deaths substantially......Dude....your list is just beginning........You have lots of work to do.
Go get em tiger! :P
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84]
14 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83] 14 Mar 2006
I'm content to begin within my industry.
If it weren't for people with "my thought process" as you so derogatorily put it, we'd still have faulty Firestone tires, exploding Ford Pinto's and prescription drugs, more capable of harm than benefit.
Were the steps taken by "Whistle Blowers" which resulted in great strides in public safety, a condemnation of the respective industries who were found at fault?
Absolutely not!
Just addressing the known problems.
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