Full Version: Geo. Knight DK20S - Watch Your Fingers
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76]
13 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#75] 13 Mar 2006
I can see very clearly that if you have your hands on the handles that you won't smash your fingers. Even with zero clearance...your hands are on a foam covered bar. Effectively buffering your fingers from damage of being crushed due to metal to metal contact. Yes even if it were possible that your finger might contact metal on one side, the foam covered bar would close on it....The foam would protect a finger from being crushed as it was in your instance. The only way to get a finger crushed would be to mistakenly have your hand on the metal bar between the handles as you did.
I guess we could require foam covered equpment from everyone for everybodys safety....Better yet!!!!! How about wearing a full coverage foam body condom similar to a ultra thick foam wet suit? Totaly safe in all cases....outside of heat exaustion problems...... :)
Sorry....just trying to lighten the mood up...
I have nothing new to add here. If you don't, how about we just stop....
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#77]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76] 13 Mar 2006
We found a point of agreement. Sticking to the facts is crucial, which is why this fact didn't escape my attention:
You're speaking in general terms, while I and the people I've spoken to, whose unsolicted comments, claim their fingers were nipped, while their hands were on the foam grips, are dealing with first-hand (so to speak) experience.
I'm going to send another e-mail to Aaron Knight. I'll let you know of his response.
From: UncleSteve [#78]
13 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#76] 13 Mar 2006
It seems obvious that David got his left hand caught in the poor wiring while closing the press with his right hand....
The horse is dead. It has been shipped off to Hormel to make dog food and the remains to Elmers to make glue.
Perhaps it IS time to bury the ears and let it go away....
Who is going to engrave the plaque to put on the horse's grave and what material will be used for the outdoor exposure? :S
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#79]
13 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#77] 13 Mar 2006
....I couldn't possibly use logic to form an opinion on what happened to you based on all of your former statements.......I'm the one with the faulty logic.
You crushed your finger by putting it in a place that it shouldn't have been and it's all Knights fault.
Sorry to have bothered everybody with my counterpoints.......
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#80]
13 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#78] 13 Mar 2006
I've made my final post on the subject at this time.
The horse was dead long before David brought it up again. Please leave that honor to him.
Thanks for your input........I wish more would have spoken out about how they felt.......Seems like no one cared....or we countered each other well enough for everyone. :)
Another excercise in futility.....................
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#81]
13 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I'd be surprised, to receive much more than a politically correct response, but I'll keep you updated, as more news becomes available.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82]
14 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I received a speedy reply from Aaron Knight.
According to Mr. Knight, the current production should already have the added handle clearance, but he'd have to check with the factory.
Regardless, he maintains that the design-is-the-design and doesn't represent a serious safety issue, or deserve designation as a design flaw.
In his words:
"I say this only because yours is the last incident."
To which I responded:
"To presume mine was the last incident, is based solely on your personal knowledge; and the fact that I've spoken to people with first-hand accounts of being nipped, while using your equipment properly, could be a precursor to future incidents."
In regard to equipment safety, Mr. Knight says this is an area the company actively pursues and improves upon.
"Rest assured, we're on it." says Aaron.
Aaron also said he trusts I'm not seeking to drag this issue too far into the realm of a crusade.
To which I replied:
"As far as a crusade, I'll take your reply at face value. If you're on it, I'm off it."
To which he replied:
"Oh, we're soooo on it!"
Let's hope that's the case. Of course, I'll keep you abreast of any new developments on this topic.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82] 14 Mar 2006
Next you can tackle the big three on their cars....but will they be safe with no doors?....
After that, you can push for a 5 point harness for everyone....as that would surely save lives....Then you may want to push for helmet requirements in cars as well......Beyond that you could fight for a 5 mph speed limit...That ought to reduce automobile related deaths substantially......Dude....your list is just beginning........You have lots of work to do.
Go get em tiger! :P
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84]
14 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83] 14 Mar 2006
I'm content to begin within my industry.
If it weren't for people with "my thought process" as you so derogatorily put it, we'd still have faulty Firestone tires, exploding Ford Pinto's and prescription drugs, more capable of harm than benefit.
Were the steps taken by "Whistle Blowers" which resulted in great strides in public safety, a condemnation of the respective industries who were found at fault?
Absolutely not!
Just addressing the known problems.
From: UncleSteve [#85]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84] 14 Mar 2006
If you really want to make the presses safe, they should be designed so it takes TWO HANDS to open and/or close them and a shield below the heat platen to avoid serious burns.
Sure it would slow everything down, but look at the additional safety it would provide to the users...
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#86]
14 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#85] 14 Mar 2006
Steve,
There are a number of heat presses, where one-hand operation is all that's necessary or available. Some, made by Geo. Knight.
In fact, I visited a distributor of Geo. Knight heat presses and found none of the models posed a risk of finger injury, except for the DK20S.
Hence the topic.
EDITED: 14 Mar 2006 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87]
14 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#85] 14 Mar 2006
Steve, you would get your hand caught on the shield plate, admit it.
That would also violate the handicapped laws in some way. [Yes it was said that way intentionally.]
I decided to give Chuck a rest and made my friend Steve the target today.
From: UncleSteve [#88]
14 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87] 14 Mar 2006
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#89]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84] 15 Mar 2006
Frankly the whole Pinto was a Design flaw.... :)
Just look at one....
Of all of the examples examples that you gave, non were from operator error. All of them were examples of products that were found to be bad by design, not because someone didn't actuate them properly.......No, when those things happen....it's called an accident....and accidents happen even with well designed products like car doors, and heat presses.
My silly post was to get people to think about how far things can be taken when "dumbing down" products, or requiring government mandates for certain kinds of fuels, or child seats until the age of 9 as in our state. To me, all of these things are a devolution of our society. Taking the responsibility from the people/parents, and putting it on the government, police, or corperations to fix our every accident, or making some other entity pay when we have one.
Yes the press could be improved as could any product......My suggestion to knight would be to use a bar that came forward with a foam handle kind of like a lawn mower handle, instead of going out like the handlebars on a bicycle. I agree entirely with Harvey that it is natural in an emergency to grab at the middle where leverage is best, but your situation wasn't an emergency. It was just a simple accident. Otherwise a basic warning sticker would probably help the average person that would put their hands on the center....I'm not entirely sure you would have looked with the description of the way you handled the machine.....but it might have helped had you looked before you "hoisted".
If all that fails........Just keep your hands off the blasted thing, you shouldn't be operating equipment of any sort. :-)
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#90]
14 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87] 14 Mar 2006
Hi Harvey,
Your point about the shield plate made me laugh....I had forgotten this, but one of the first times I used our first hix press, I lifted my hand to grab the handle. On the way up it brushed the front corner of the press.....The thin sheet steel heat sheild was rather sharp and hooked me and took a big chunk out of my hand....Not so far as needing stitches, but worth taking notice....yes dripping blood.......I came back and took a file to it to take the edge off.
Problem solved...... No threats to the vendor were necessary.....Just a simple accident.
:)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#91]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#89] 15 Mar 2006
Whether you realize it or not, you and your family have been the beneficiaries of safety improvements, made to any number of products, spurred on by people who foresaw trouble, where others, particularly the manufacturers, claimed there was none.
That's why I've pointed out incidents where people, through "proper" use of the press have been nipped.
Why would GK say they're "on it" if there were nothing to get on?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92]
15 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#91] 15 Mar 2006
Because of your threat of a personal crusade.
Your previous post was an example of this behavior, and showed his reaction based on fear of a personal crusade, not an interest in correcting a flaw that doesn't exist. Because of people like you.....vendors have to walk on eggshells. Even if someone misuses their product, they are in a position to get sued or threatened with a law suit or some other personal crusade.
I happen to be a safety advocate, and am probably more up on OSHA and MSDS requirements than the majority of the forum membership, due to the equipment and chemicals that we use daily. I am well aware of how important safety standards are, but I am also well aware of personal responsibility and good training.
You didn't know that piece of equipment well enough to actuate it properly. Your arrogance made you think that "ya seen one press, ya seen em all", and you got hurt. Blaming them and making them change the press design will make you feel good, but I highly doubt that it will save any lives, or even change much if at all regarding injuries.
Your trying to compare real design flaws that are life endangering (like an exploding pinto, or firestone tires) with you pinching a finger because you pulled the wrong part of a lever.....Not exactly the same situation.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#93]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92] 15 Mar 2006
Obviously, we'll never get close to agreeing on anything to do with this topic, but I do appreciate your participation in keeping this thread alive and everpresent on the "Recent Discussion" area of the forum start page.
Thank you.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#94]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92] 15 Mar 2006
I do not think that David ever did any of the above.
When he is told that it is being worked on, he just gets pissed when it looks like nothing but lip service.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#95]
15 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#94] 15 Mar 2006
Hi Harvey,
I realize that he didn't threaten with a lawsuit or litigation, but he did threaten them with a personal crusade on a public forum. I was speaking in broad terms about what vendors have to contend with in this day and age.
Frankly if I was Knight, I would be pissed for being pushed to re-design a product that was already safe when used properly. They certainly can't come out and say that because it's not politically correct, so instead they play the lip service game........I am not saying that it is right to do, but I understand why it might happen.
David will most likely get what he wants because it is politically correct,....not because it is necessary.
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