Full Version: Geo. Knight DK20S - Watch Your Fingers
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#81]
13 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I'd be surprised, to receive much more than a politically correct response, but I'll keep you updated, as more news becomes available.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82]
14 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I received a speedy reply from Aaron Knight.
According to Mr. Knight, the current production should already have the added handle clearance, but he'd have to check with the factory.
Regardless, he maintains that the design-is-the-design and doesn't represent a serious safety issue, or deserve designation as a design flaw.
In his words:
"I say this only because yours is the last incident."
To which I responded:
"To presume mine was the last incident, is based solely on your personal knowledge; and the fact that I've spoken to people with first-hand accounts of being nipped, while using your equipment properly, could be a precursor to future incidents."
In regard to equipment safety, Mr. Knight says this is an area the company actively pursues and improves upon.
"Rest assured, we're on it." says Aaron.
Aaron also said he trusts I'm not seeking to drag this issue too far into the realm of a crusade.
To which I replied:
"As far as a crusade, I'll take your reply at face value. If you're on it, I'm off it."
To which he replied:
"Oh, we're soooo on it!"
Let's hope that's the case. Of course, I'll keep you abreast of any new developments on this topic.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#82] 14 Mar 2006
Next you can tackle the big three on their cars....but will they be safe with no doors?....
After that, you can push for a 5 point harness for everyone....as that would surely save lives....Then you may want to push for helmet requirements in cars as well......Beyond that you could fight for a 5 mph speed limit...That ought to reduce automobile related deaths substantially......Dude....your list is just beginning........You have lots of work to do.
Go get em tiger! :P
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84]
14 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#83] 14 Mar 2006
I'm content to begin within my industry.
If it weren't for people with "my thought process" as you so derogatorily put it, we'd still have faulty Firestone tires, exploding Ford Pinto's and prescription drugs, more capable of harm than benefit.
Were the steps taken by "Whistle Blowers" which resulted in great strides in public safety, a condemnation of the respective industries who were found at fault?
Absolutely not!
Just addressing the known problems.
From: UncleSteve [#85]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84] 14 Mar 2006
If you really want to make the presses safe, they should be designed so it takes TWO HANDS to open and/or close them and a shield below the heat platen to avoid serious burns.
Sure it would slow everything down, but look at the additional safety it would provide to the users...
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#86]
14 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#85] 14 Mar 2006
Steve,
There are a number of heat presses, where one-hand operation is all that's necessary or available. Some, made by Geo. Knight.
In fact, I visited a distributor of Geo. Knight heat presses and found none of the models posed a risk of finger injury, except for the DK20S.
Hence the topic.
EDITED: 14 Mar 2006 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87]
14 Mar 2006
To: UncleSteve [#85] 14 Mar 2006
Steve, you would get your hand caught on the shield plate, admit it.
That would also violate the handicapped laws in some way. [Yes it was said that way intentionally.]
I decided to give Chuck a rest and made my friend Steve the target today.
From: UncleSteve [#88]
14 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87] 14 Mar 2006
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#89]
14 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#84] 15 Mar 2006
Frankly the whole Pinto was a Design flaw.... :)
Just look at one....
Of all of the examples examples that you gave, non were from operator error. All of them were examples of products that were found to be bad by design, not because someone didn't actuate them properly.......No, when those things happen....it's called an accident....and accidents happen even with well designed products like car doors, and heat presses.
My silly post was to get people to think about how far things can be taken when "dumbing down" products, or requiring government mandates for certain kinds of fuels, or child seats until the age of 9 as in our state. To me, all of these things are a devolution of our society. Taking the responsibility from the people/parents, and putting it on the government, police, or corperations to fix our every accident, or making some other entity pay when we have one.
Yes the press could be improved as could any product......My suggestion to knight would be to use a bar that came forward with a foam handle kind of like a lawn mower handle, instead of going out like the handlebars on a bicycle. I agree entirely with Harvey that it is natural in an emergency to grab at the middle where leverage is best, but your situation wasn't an emergency. It was just a simple accident. Otherwise a basic warning sticker would probably help the average person that would put their hands on the center....I'm not entirely sure you would have looked with the description of the way you handled the machine.....but it might have helped had you looked before you "hoisted".
If all that fails........Just keep your hands off the blasted thing, you shouldn't be operating equipment of any sort. :-)
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#90]
14 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#87] 14 Mar 2006
Hi Harvey,
Your point about the shield plate made me laugh....I had forgotten this, but one of the first times I used our first hix press, I lifted my hand to grab the handle. On the way up it brushed the front corner of the press.....The thin sheet steel heat sheild was rather sharp and hooked me and took a big chunk out of my hand....Not so far as needing stitches, but worth taking notice....yes dripping blood.......I came back and took a file to it to take the edge off.
Problem solved...... No threats to the vendor were necessary.....Just a simple accident.
:)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#91]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#89] 15 Mar 2006
Whether you realize it or not, you and your family have been the beneficiaries of safety improvements, made to any number of products, spurred on by people who foresaw trouble, where others, particularly the manufacturers, claimed there was none.
That's why I've pointed out incidents where people, through "proper" use of the press have been nipped.
Why would GK say they're "on it" if there were nothing to get on?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92]
15 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#91] 15 Mar 2006
Because of your threat of a personal crusade.
Your previous post was an example of this behavior, and showed his reaction based on fear of a personal crusade, not an interest in correcting a flaw that doesn't exist. Because of people like you.....vendors have to walk on eggshells. Even if someone misuses their product, they are in a position to get sued or threatened with a law suit or some other personal crusade.
I happen to be a safety advocate, and am probably more up on OSHA and MSDS requirements than the majority of the forum membership, due to the equipment and chemicals that we use daily. I am well aware of how important safety standards are, but I am also well aware of personal responsibility and good training.
You didn't know that piece of equipment well enough to actuate it properly. Your arrogance made you think that "ya seen one press, ya seen em all", and you got hurt. Blaming them and making them change the press design will make you feel good, but I highly doubt that it will save any lives, or even change much if at all regarding injuries.
Your trying to compare real design flaws that are life endangering (like an exploding pinto, or firestone tires) with you pinching a finger because you pulled the wrong part of a lever.....Not exactly the same situation.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#93]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92] 15 Mar 2006
Obviously, we'll never get close to agreeing on anything to do with this topic, but I do appreciate your participation in keeping this thread alive and everpresent on the "Recent Discussion" area of the forum start page.
Thank you.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#94]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#92] 15 Mar 2006
I do not think that David ever did any of the above.
When he is told that it is being worked on, he just gets pissed when it looks like nothing but lip service.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#95]
15 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#94] 15 Mar 2006
Hi Harvey,
I realize that he didn't threaten with a lawsuit or litigation, but he did threaten them with a personal crusade on a public forum. I was speaking in broad terms about what vendors have to contend with in this day and age.
Frankly if I was Knight, I would be pissed for being pushed to re-design a product that was already safe when used properly. They certainly can't come out and say that because it's not politically correct, so instead they play the lip service game........I am not saying that it is right to do, but I understand why it might happen.
David will most likely get what he wants because it is politically correct,....not because it is necessary.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#96]
15 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#93] 15 Mar 2006
From: Becky (KIAIJANE) [#97]
15 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16] 15 Mar 2006
Dave-
Thank you for your post about your mishap with the heat press. I have a mother who went to the hospital with chest pains...turns out her purse was to heavy and she had bursitis (we now jokingly refer to it as purse-itis) I have a brother in law who went to the ER 3 times because of a neck problem he was having..turns out he had switched pillows. Neither of these people need instructions on a purse or a pillow nor do they need warning labels to use such things. My point is that sometimes things we use on a daily basis can cause injury when you least expect it. As a new heat press owner, I found your heads up valuable and would never question your experience and ego.
Thank you for taking the time to post it.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#98]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#96] 15 Mar 2006
Brian,
Following, is my original email to Aaron. No threat of a forum crusade, here, or in any other communication.
I was approaching him as a concerned "citizen."
At the time, he was appreciative of my bringing this unforseen problem to his attention.
In my most recent email, (8 mos. later) he was less appreciative of my bringing to his attention, multiple incidents of people "nipping" their fingers through "proper" use of the press.
I would rather be threatened by GK, than given empty claims of addressing the issue.
Of course, I don't see what type of threat could be leveled, by my reporting factual experiences, of end-users of their equipment.
You may think I 'have it in" for GK, which isn't the case. I highlighted their equipment in an ARA presentation, "Choosing Sublimation Equipment & Supplies" and would do so again, in any future presentations on the subject.
...................................................................................................................
I'm making contact to alert you to what I see as a design flaw in the DK20S heat press.
My personal heat press is a Hix swing-away model.
I routinely use the center section of the Hix open/close lever (very similar
to that of the DK20S) as a means of stable, one-hand operation, in the
opening and closing of the press.
Last weekend, I was an instructor at a sublimation training event and used a DK20S to create a sample for my presentation.
With my left hand operating the pressure adjustment knob and my right hand on the center section of the open/close lever, I slightly opened and closed the press until I had achieved proper pressure.
I then moved the open/close lever to its full-open position, which resulted in the index finger of my right hand being smashed between the lever and the top of the heat press housing, just above the digital readout.
I've attached a picture of the injury.
I'm not a litigious person and the purpose of this message is not to seek
compensation in any form.
At bare minimum, I suggest a warning label be placed above the digital
readout. Better: A means of limiting the throw of the lever, leaving space for a person's fingers.
To think a situation such as mine hasn't happened before, or will never
happen again, would be short-sighted.
I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to run your business. Just hoping
to keep you out of potential legal proceedings, while protecting the users of your equipment.
Thank you,
David Lavaneri
DGL Engraving
...................................................................................................................
EDITED: 15 Mar 2006 by DGL
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#99]
15 Mar 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#98] 15 Mar 2006
"Rest assured, we're on it." says Aaron.
Aaron also said he trusts I'm not seeking to drag this issue too far into the realm of a crusade.
To which I replied:
"As far as a crusade, I'll take your reply at face value. If you're on it, I'm off it."
To which he replied:
"Oh, we're soooo on it!"
Showing he perceives you as someone on a crusade.......requiring him to change it or you'll be back "on it". To me that exchange came across as a threat in which he conceeded. Weather he actually will adjust the press or not will be interesting at this point. He has pretty much pigeonholed himself into doing what you want him to, or getting backlash here on the forum. Like I said before, I feel that you have him by the perverbial short hairs because of your ability to continue your "crusade" here on a public forum. He will have to be politicaly correct and adjust it or you won't let it die......I mean come on...if your willing to go almost 100 rounds with me on the subject.....I highly doubt that he will stop you..... :)
I think you will get what you want.....but I still think your wrong to do what you are doing. I honestly don't think you have any other axe to grind with them, and I believe that this is something that you believe in...not that it's something out of retribution....I give you credit for that....I just disagree.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#100]
15 Mar 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#99] 15 Mar 2006
It's not a matter of Aaron doing what I want him to.
It's a matter of him following through on an uncoerced claim, that in the end, will be in the best interest of his company.
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