Full Version: Geo. Knight DK20S - Watch Your Fingers
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#9]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#8] 27 Jun 2005
Yes I actually did.
Your ego is what gave you your injury, not the heat press.
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#10]
27 Jun 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#9] 27 Jun 2005
So when you drive a car for the first time, be it a demo, a car rental, a loaner from the mechanic or you are borrowing a friends car you sit there reading the 100 + page manual before you drive away?
I think not!
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#11]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1] 27 Jun 2005
David,
In the past I worked for a company that made medical devices. The FDA would call that a "use error", and consider it a design flaw.
Does not matter if its obvious.
Does not matter if there is a large warning sticker or other documentation not to do it.
If people do it, its a design flaw.
Verify and validate are two different steps in testing a product. Verify confirms that it meets the design requirements. Validation checks how it is actually used.
A common case study: One company made a machine for use in hospitals by trained staff. It had a filter that required changing. It was well documented when the filter should be changed, including labels on the device itself. If it was not changed an alarm would sound when it became blocked, a condition dangerous for the patient. (I believe the machine was considered life support.) Some operators used the alarm as the filter change signal. The company had to redesign it.
Looking at the picture, you posted, the potential for this problem could easily be eliminated by redesigning the handle.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#12]
27 Jun 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#11] 27 Jun 2005
EDITED: 27 Jun 2005 by RALLYGUY1
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#13]
27 Jun 2005
To: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#10] 27 Jun 2005
Nope, just talking about cars I bought or owned. I don't borrow them, nor have I had to get a loaner yet.
Just because you are a press operator, you can't assume that every printer operates the same.
the same goes for most all equipment, especially equipment that has a clearly different look than traditional equipment that you have used in the past.
It makes sense to at minimum size up the equipment and get a mechanical understanding of the piece of equipment. In this instance I would say it would be to find and use the handles that are supplied.
EDITED: 27 Jun 2005 by RALLYGUY1
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14]
27 Jun 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#9] 27 Jun 2005
Brian,
You'll never be hired as a valet parking attendant :-)
My ego caused the accident? Interesting perception.
How so?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#15]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14] 27 Jun 2005
Your assumption that you have plenty of experience with heat presses, and that no further training or education would be necessary. It clearly was and didn't take place. Although I guess "the pinch" should be an education in itself.
I bet you don't do it twice :)
Hey! Stop reading while I'm re-writing!!! :)
EDITED: 27 Jun 2005 by RALLYGUY1
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16]
27 Jun 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#15] 27 Jun 2005
OK Brian,
I can see you're determined to shoot the messenger.
I do have plenty of experience with heat presses, and now one very painful experience, with a poorly-designed machine, to add to that experience.
Just trying to provide a non-hypothetical hazard warning to current and potential users of this heat press, which is arguably, one of the most heavily-promoted models in the industry.
From: Tamara [#17]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14] 27 Jun 2005
Ummmm....Dave?
Not to sound facetious, but uh, my Geo Knight press gets up to say 500 degrees or so if I want it to, and uh...there doesn't seem to be a single warning label anywhere mentioning there is a chance I could suffer second or third degree burns if I accidentally bump into the platen.
I mean, if you are going to gear yourself up for a big crusade, why not go for the serious stuff like melting flesh? I have the scars to prove it - let me know if you need some photos for the judge ;-)
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#18]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#14] 27 Jun 2005
David,
My daughter has her arm in a cast for another couple of weeks. The natural way for her to operate this press would be by lifting in the center area with one hand. If you try lifting on either side of the handle by itself, it torques the whole mechanism. Be this a unique situation, there are many scenarios like this that will require a one-hand operation. I don't recall the manual saying anything about a two-hand requirement, but I could be wrong.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#19]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#16] 27 Jun 2005
David,
I don't even own a gun.
My point is that the messanger probably could have been alot more careful and taken responsibility for his actions, instead of blame it on the equipment he is using.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20]
27 Jun 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#12] 27 Jun 2005
You are correct, there is no chance of the FDA policing heat presses. It's a matter of good vs. poor design. Why does an item have to be medical or a child's toy to require good design? How about doing something because its the right thing to do, not because its required. The people on this forum take pride in their work, shouldn't we expect that of our suppliers?
This is not the first problem I've seen posted regarding Geo Knight equipment. They seem to have a track record of not caring about customer safety, and ignoring issues brought to their attention.
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#21]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#1] 27 Jun 2005
David...first, not all of the model in question have the handle hitting the metal top above the digital readout...mine, as I told you earlier, does not. I will admit that if one was using the press differently than it was intended to be used, would get a finger or two pinched, mine does not have enough clearance for fingers.
One should not assume that because they have operated a number of different presses that they automatically have the experience or skill to operate all.
As for a warning sticker, does your oven come with one warning to use pot holders when removing pans from the oven, do table saw blades come with a warning that using your hand to stop them is a bad idea (and yes, I know a woodworker that routinely uses his finger on the side of the blade to do just that)??
I think this is just a contuation of the attack on Geo Knight, and your inherant need for controversy. After all, what in the world gets more posting than negative press, be it about our customers or our equipment.
Sheesh, if I whined to the forum everytime I got a injury from a piece of equipment that I used in a fashion other than it was designed for, I would never get anything done.
I did not infer that you were not taking the bruised finger like a man, but I will state that you should man up and admit that you used the press differently than it was designed to be used and that you yourself are responsible for the damage done.
Doug
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#22]
27 Jun 2005
To: ALL
Gee wiz! Never thought I would have to post this on THIS forum.
After rereading the original post I conclude that my first impression was correct. David is just trying to prevent others from getting pinched the way he did. Notifying Knight might help prevent that from happening in the future.
I hope that the knit pickers are having fun, they sure are ruining this thread for others. There have been a very few good posts in this thread, thank goodness for those few.
My personal opinion would be to delete this thread, restart it and implant the few good posts. (David would never allow that, darn.)
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#23]
27 Jun 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#22] 27 Jun 2005
Harvey,
It is amazing how a simple, well-intended post can get twisted around. Fortunately, we have intelligent people here who can take the original post for its face value and not read into it.
This is the kind of information that will make all press manufacturer's products better and safer. I predict that in years to come we will see a change in Knight's design, simply because of David's mishap and his willingness to take the time to share it with them. If we don't, we will see where consumer safety ranks with them.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24]
27 Jun 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#21] 27 Jun 2005
If all machines of the same model number aren't created equal, what's that say about GK's quality control?
If there's an attack on the Geo. Knight company, it's of their own making. I merely pointed out a painful experience with a poorly-designed piece of equipment, in hopes that others may avoid such a scenario.
If, as you say, I have a need for controversy, where are the lists of complaints for the rest of the heat press manufacturers. I can start in on those.
Could it be there's nothing to complain about?
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#25]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24] 27 Jun 2005
David
Are you really suggesting that a machine with no less than 13 machined, metal parts with no less than 14 connectors of different types could not have been done with a minor difference in tolerances. I'm sitting looking at my press right now in the fully up condition and the handle clears the metal face by only .25"?
Are you further suggesting that there is no other manufacture out there making widgets by the 1000's that does not have a varience ship out to the public?
I have two problems with your attack on Geo Knight this time (and it's not your first, just your first time having it happen directly to you). 1st is your post before you contact the company directly. My second challange is this continued approach of; if one machine, or one model out of 1000's shipped has a problem, the company makes no good product.
I find it hard to accept that a company that has been in the business of making presses for so many years is making bad product. And I look at the dk20s and realize mine is at least 4 years old and from the pictures, it has not been noticably changed in that time...not a sign of a product they are having a problem with. I don't know of any company that can survive the years that George Knight has by putting out bad product.
Am I sympathetic to your injury, you bet I am...been there done that and it hurts. Do I believe that Geo Knight is the worst press manufacture out there because you hurt yourself not using the machine as intended...no!
Doug
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26]
27 Jun 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#25] 27 Jun 2005
Doug,
Read the title of the thread. It hasn't been changed since its creation.
It's a safety warning based on my personal experience. The title doesn't say boycott Geo. Knight, attack Geo. Knight, or anything of the sort.
The fact you disagree with the sequence of my getting the message to Knight has no bearing on its importance.
Regardless of a variance in tolerance, less than .25" isn't enough clearance for a person's fingers and it's something which can be remedied.
Maybe this is the first time, in the history of the company, such an injury has occured with the DK20S. To assume it will never happen again would be short-sighted.
I've sent Knight an email along with the picture of my injured finger.
I assured Knight the purpose of my email isn't to seek compensation in any form. Another person may not be so forgiving.
It's true that Geo. Knight has been around since the 1800s. Could it also be true they've been around long enough to become complacent?
EDITED: 27 Jun 2005 by DGL
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#27]
27 Jun 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26] 27 Jun 2005
David
You're right, you toned down your message here. I'm guilty of having read your previous messages on DSSI where you suggested in one message that you and many others have given Geo Knight the finger and in another that you would not ever have such a machine in your shop.
Again, I will repeat, if you were using the machine, by using the padded handles provided, you would not have pinched your finger...this is not a design failure, it is a user failure.
Doug
From: Tamara [#28]
27 Jun 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#22] 27 Jun 2005
Did you not read the no less than three dramatically mysterious "lead-in" posts and then finally the "big story" Dave wrote up for us on DSSI? If not, please do so before you shake your finger at people who are not prone to simply applaud and bow down unquestioningly before David's latest attempt at the betterment of the human race.
You might take note of this ending bit:
"Strike 1 - Wiring problems, Strike 2 - Personal injury, Strike 3 - I may never know. You'll never see one of those presses in my shop."
Sounds like a man who has made a cut and dried statement about a manufacturer to me! And all this presumably before he spoke with Knight, to see if maybe the press he had was somehow modified or improperly assembled.
If I were wanting to "warn" people about a potential "hazard" I might just say "Hey, I slammed the heck outta my finger on this stupid press cause I wasn't paying close attention and it's a dumb design. Be careful!" and leave it at that.
If I were wanting to continue the trend of "Knight Bashing" that some people are prone to, and at the same time enjoy piquing everyone's curiousity with vague hints of what's up my sleeve in order to puff up a minor incident into a front page story, then I'd take David's well traveled route. If that kind of thing amuses a few people, or irritates a few others, then I don' t blame them. Suggesting that their comments are not worthy of being on a forum as erudite as this is not the kind of "anti-censorship, forum for everyone, take all comers" attitude that David has always portended to have. Has there been a change?
Maybe the rabble wouldn't be skulking around in here at all if it weren't for David's penchant for posting something on DSSI, and then if it creates even a minor ripple, running back over to EE to play the polished routine on his home turf. All the while insisting that we not "double post" once he gets the thread going on his own forum, bringing the spectators along with him for the ride.
If I sound cynical, petty, or rude Harvey, it's only because after all these years I expected you of all people to maintain a fair and balanced perspective. Nothing personal, just sticking up for the lowly nit-pickers. Without them we'd all be a bunch of yes-men. Feel free to delete my post for being off topic, but I sure hope you think about my point before you do. It's kind of sad that these minor soap operas always end up this way, but that is what you get when you always insist on stirring with the biggest spoon available, even if it doesn't fit the pot.
FWIW,
EDITED: 27 Jun 2005 by TAMARA
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