Full Version: Computerized engraving
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1]
5 Jul 2005
To: ALL
Hi All,
A thread started by James from bayshoreengraving, about his new acquisition, prompts me to ask the question that has been on my mind for awhile now.
With the booming growth in laser engravers and laser engravable products, is the "rotary/computerized" engraver becoming obsolete? I ask because I have been thinking of buying one, so when we move into our location (hopefully by the end of the year) I can be fully equipped, but I do not want to buy something that would be useless in a year.
Thoughts?
Thanks
From: jbrewer (JEANETTEBREWER) [#2]
5 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 5 Jul 2005
Chuck,
Dad wrote an article a few months(?) back for Engravers Journal (I thought - but I couldn't locate on the website) entitled "Anybody Still Buying Mechanical Engravers?"
If I can't find the periodical/issue where it was published, I'll email you the "rough draft" of the article. I think you'll enjoy reading it...
[edited: grammatical error]
EDITED: 5 Jul 2005 by JEANETTEBREWER
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3]
5 Jul 2005
To: jbrewer (JEANETTEBREWER) [#2] 5 Jul 2005
I own both. Since I started with the mechanical systems, most work is geared to that.
If I started with a laser more would be geared to the laser, (assuming that I could put it in the store in the mall), but I still believe that the mechanical machine would be the most used machine.
Each type of machine can do some things that the other cannot do, and cannot do some things that other can do.
Metals are easiest on a mechanical, plaques are easier on a laser. Coated metals are a mechanical only, cutting parts is almost exclusively a laser item. Ad nautium.
From: logojohn [#4]
5 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 5 Jul 2005
We give our customers a choice of laser or diamond drag engraving on plaques. Over 95% still choose diamond drag. They like that it is cut into the metal and that is what they have been used to getting for years.
It would be difficult to do without either one.
From: UncleSteve [#5]
5 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3] 5 Jul 2005
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#6]
5 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#5] 5 Jul 2005
The closest thing to hand engraving that I can do is with a pantograph.
I cannot draw worth a #^$($^$.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#7]
5 Jul 2005
To: logojohn [#4] 6 Jul 2005
LJ,
Thanks for the reply.....but one of the things that I hear over and over again in this business is "make sure you offer something new" ....I know that it is true that a lot of people do like the diamond drag look, ( if you keep your cutters sharp), but as more and more laser products become available would it follow that the "older" techniques would fade away? I mean does anyone use a pantograph daily anymore? ( I don't know)
Today I had to fix a plaque done by someone else. It had a diamond drag plate on it. The laser engraved plate IMHO had a "snazzier" look to it using Rowmark Brushed Gold on Black...
Anyway, before I invest $11 grand or so.....I want to be sure it will be something I will use for a long long long long long long time.....
Thanks
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#8]
5 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#7] 6 Jul 2005
I would venture to say that a laser and a rotary are very complimentary , however there are rotarys and rotarys and I think the smaller machines that are specific to engraving are not a good buy in this regard.
What you really need is an inbetween machine , 1/2 an overhead router and 1/2 an engraver. What I mean by this is one of the heavier duty XY tables that can either take a routing spindle or a floating diamond tip type burnisher/nose cone type spindle .
The ability to cut and route heavier duty stuff is invaluable if you have a laser , there are so many ways you can combine the output of that and what you do with a laser.
The smaller machines (Like our roland 2300) are not really potent enough to do much else APART from engraving and struggle to profile stuff. We make money off it , but its very limited in marking compared to a laser , ANY contact type engraving is limited compared to a laser - jigs and holding devices will be your major headaches
We use ISEL 1m x 500mm "engravers" running 900w Kress router motors as spindles and have a floating attachment on one of them for anything thats not flat , for the real heavy duty stuff , we run a Tekcel heavy dutuy router with a high power perske high speed spindle.
The Isels do beautiful engraving (even with their stepper motors) and can go from diamond burnishing right thru to cutting , routing and pocketing supawood , can cut 1mm brass in a single pass , cuts and engraves ally boat panels, 10mm perspex and so forth.
The Tekcel is a potent speed machine and can cut and shape stainless up to 2mm , 5mm thick brass in a single pass and can do 3d type engraving over BIG areas. (as well as tiny stuff)
To give an example , you can laser a nice piece of acrylic , route a wood base with a slot for it and make a nice standing type sign , You can route and pocket THICK acrylic and then laser engrave it , you can do a nicely engraved brass plaque and then use the laser to make a pex backing , the possibilities are endless , I cant POSSIBLY list them all.
A TON of stuff on my site is done that way , CnC routed/engraved AND lasered.
I would seriously look far further afield than mere engravers if you do intend to go rotary as the right machine can lead to far more opportunities than just an engraver and will be a far more profitable purchase.
Regards
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9]
6 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#7] 6 Jul 2005
Chuck,
I can tell you that I do use my computerized mechanical engraver every day.
One of the keys to my growth is that I have been able to promote the fact that I "engrave". I have a big neon sign in my window that says "Engraving". In hindsight, it should say "We Engrave". I have so many people that say they came to my business because they remember the sign. If they came into my store and all I did was laser engrave, I would have alot of customers leaving my store upset or disappointed.
Customers to our industry don't understand all of the nuances of what can and cannot be engraved by the various technologies. Granted, it is our job to educate them, but all they want is Baby Joe's silver-plated picture frame engraved, not an education. What they do know is that they read or heard that we engrave, and now we say we can't. What is it?
I don't do a tremendous amount of industrial engraving. The image development of my business has been on the corporate gift and award side of the market. I can't imaging my business functioning effectively without a computerized mechanical engraver.
If you are going to get into the gift market, investigate the machines that have the ability to engrave cylindrical items. I know in my market I am the only person in town that offers this service, therefore it is at a premium. It would be anyway, because it does require an additional investment.
You also want to find the machine that has a good vice sytem with reasonable clearance for larger sized and odd shaped items.
I really enjoy my New Hermes IS400 Volume, but there are some less expensive machines on the market, of which I would specifically like to mention the new machine from Xenetech. I am not sure if it has been released, but the early comments have been interesting.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#10]
6 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#7] 6 Jul 2005
When it comes to mechanical engraving equipment, wheter it be manual pantograph or computerized systems, I've always preferred ultimate versatility.
When a person is just getting started, I suggest specializing in not specializing. Try all areas of engraving, i.e. metal giftware, plastic nameplates and badges, light industrial (simple equipment panels), burnished glass/ceramics.
You may find you don't enjoy some of those areas, or can't make them profitable. That's when you Thin the Herd to those areas you find both enjoyable and profitable.
If you buy a relatively single-dimensional piece of equipment, you limit your possibilities.
David T.'s example of mechanical cylindrical capability is a perfect example. Very few engravers in my neck of the woods have that capability.
When people need that type of work performed, you're the guy! :-)
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#11]
6 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#10] 6 Jul 2005
David,
One of my struggles starting out was determining whether I needed a larger engraving table or a machine with a smaller table and more versitility. I don't know if I got lucky or just marketed my machine's capabilities well. Whatever it was, I am glad I went the route I did. Versatility all the way for me.
EDITED: 6 Jul 2005 by DATAKES
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
6 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#11] 6 Jul 2005
You wouldn't believe how many times I've walk into a shop to see someone with a 16x24 table using the upper left hand corner to engrave small trophy plates or namebadges.
The rest of the table makes a nice staging area though :-)
From: Myyk [#13]
6 Jul 2005
To: ALL
We don't even have a laser engraving system. It is not a total necessity for a successful engraving busness.
We make do at present with a flat bed Meistergram and a Vision Max.
We have 3 manual pantograph machines and at least one is used every day. You cannot do single names and dates for yearly perpetual awards on a computer system any where near as quickly as a pantograph. By the time you have it lined up to match the previous column, you could do it twice manually. We also do sublimation and have a Sandblasting system, so can cover many areas where a laser would excel, albeit not as efficiently.
It may surprise some that I still do some work by hand with a dental burr and hand gravers. It is very handy for engraving inside rings and bracelets and for going over computer work when there is a hiccup. Our Vision Max ocasionally drops steps, (grr!) and I can recover the work by overcutting by hand. This has saved me lots of money.
The fact that the Vision drops steps is frustrating, but support is limited way down here in the South Pacific, and intermittent problems are near impossible to track down.
That being said, we take delivery of a LazerPro Mercury in the next few weeks.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14]
6 Jul 2005
To: Myyk [#13] 6 Jul 2005
Losing steps is usually due to some binding or over speeding.
Try to check the lubrication on all moving parts. If they stiffen there will be too much drag. A good rule of thumb is to clean off all lubrication before re-lubricating. That removes the bad stuff and replaces it completely with new lubricant that will last a lot longer when pure.
Even if you are not running it faster than you did before, slowing it down a little can usually get it to lose less steps. If it still loses steps then the lubricant is just thickened too much, or a stepper is going. (The bearings on the stepper need to have a good lubricant that has not thickened. This is one aspect of the machines that is often missed when checking for binding.)
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#15]
6 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#11] 6 Jul 2005
David,
I agree, versatility all the way. That is one of the reasons I am enquiring about the computerized/rotar/mechanical engraver....if it is not on it's way to obselesnce and won't be for some time, I believe that I need to get one into my arsenal when the money permits.....hence the questions.
Thanks
From: UncleSteve [#16]
6 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#14] 6 Jul 2005
WD40 is NOT a lubricant. It cleans fine but will then dry up anything it touches!! It is meant to free sticking parts.
But I'm sure everyone knew that...
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#17]
6 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#16] 6 Jul 2005
And never use 3-in-one oil either, it gums up in a few months.
Singer Sewing Machine oil for a light oil, and a silicon/teflon grease for grease. If you can still find Lubriplate Marine Lube 'B' it is also a fine grease.
From: UncleSteve [#18]
6 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#17] 6 Jul 2005
I couldn't finde "marine B" on their site, but here is the tech contact number for Lubriplate. Most of their producets seem to have gone synthetic so they may have a new version that will work as good or better.
Technical Service Center.
800-347-5343
(For Technical Questions Only)
From: MR C (MOSHE) [#19]
26 Feb 2006
To: Myyk [#13] 26 Feb 2006
From: Myyk [#20]
26 Feb 2006
To: MR C (MOSHE) [#19] 27 Feb 2006
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