Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1]
12 Jul 2005
To: ALL
Moderators,
I was just on www.sawmillcreek.org and noticed they have a "donations" link.
Any thoughts on a "donation" method rather than a "pay" method?
Just an option.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2]
12 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#1] 12 Jul 2005
How's that donation system panning out? What expenses/services are the donations covering?
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3]
12 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 12 Jul 2005
David,
That is a question that crossed my mind, but I thought would best be discussed from moderator to moderator as opposed to member to moderator. The thinking being the moderator of sawmillcreek would more likely be open to talking to you instead of me.
However as I write this, I am wondering about the competition between forums and if maybe it WOULD be better if the question came from me. I don't know.
My personal opinion however is that I would rather "donate" than "pay".
I understand the copious amount of work and effort you put into this, however, when I joined the DSSI forum my "knee jerk" reaction was, "You have to be kidding?"... so I am still a basic member. The only difference that I can "see" is that I cannot search the archives until the end of time.
On the other hand, I believe that this forum is valuable. Would I donate? Knowing what I know yes. Would I donate to the other? Probably not, but that would be because of the friends I have made here and the "perceived value" of THIS forum. Would I "pay" for the other forum. No. Would I "pay" for this forum? Probably.
I do believe that this forum will lose many members when it goes to a "pay" system. Is that bad? No, I don't think so. Most of the members you would lose would be the "lurkers" not the active ones. I don't think.
Sheesh. Sorry for the long reply..."Help me, I started talking and can't stop".... ( No wise cracks Joe).
Just my two cents. Want change?
EDITED: 12 Jul 2005 by C_BURKE
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4]
12 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#3] 12 Jul 2005
I watch and enjoy public television from time to time.
They're constantly asking for donations. Do I donate? No.
If public television went to a pay format, would I pay? I honestly can't answer that question, because it hasn't happened.
It would probably have to go away first, before I could determine how much I valued/missed the programming.
If I determined I was missing out, I'd absolutely pay.
You may find this interesting. Our original ad in the Engravers Journal, used to generate a fairly consistent response. I made one minor adjustment to the ad, which all but halted a response.
Here are the two words that killed the response rate:
FREE MEMBERSHIP
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5]
12 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4] 13 Jul 2005
David,
Interestingly enough those are the words that got me here although I heard about this forum from Jeanette Brewer and not EJ. I actually had to LOOK for the ad.
Regardless, you won't lose me when we go to pay.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
13 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5] 13 Jul 2005
From my early days on the internet, I've always viewed free access as a loss-leader and a means to get people interested in a site.
I couldn't believe all the information that was being put out there at no cost.
It was amazing!
Sure enough, at some point, something had to give, and we're seeing it happen.
Some sites, such as Delphi Forums charge for "Plus" memberships, which offer increased software functionality. Ad-free viewing also costs more. In that regard, we have what Delphi offers and more - as is!
Many of the free forums are relatively inactive. Others, are overrun with ads, to the point of being offensive.
We advertise ourselves as the 411/911 of the Awards & Engraving Industry. Myself and others have spent considerable time away from our paying work, in order to see the forum live up to that claim.
As much as I consider my hosting of this site a labor of love, and as much as I appreciate the volunteerism, on the part of others, I believe we've put something of value together, which can be the basis of a profit-producing entity.
I'm looking forward to that day and I'm looking forward to rewarding some of our Contributing Members as well.
As I've said a number of times in the past; If we can't make a membership fee to this forum, absolutely pale in comparison, to the time-saving, money-making advice and instant access to crucial A&E industry information, which will directly benefit your business and your quest for knowledge, we've been a miserable failure.
We haven't failed in that regard and we don't expect to.
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#7]
13 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#5] 13 Jul 2005
"you won't lose me when we go to pay."
Chuck, Chuck, Chuck
David was looking for encouragement!!! :)
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#8]
13 Jul 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#7] 13 Jul 2005
From: Michael [#9]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
The very first thing I want to say (even though I don't own an engraver yet [maybe by Labor Day]) is that this forum has been invaluable in terms of $ as well as, in some cases, entertainment.
The second item is that I would not pay to read or post. However, on reflection I believe I would make donations from time to time. Here is why:
- This forum is offered as a public service even if the public to which it is directed is a small portion of the population. Correct me if I'm wrong in that perception.
- If the unpaid hours of the volunteers becomes a burden for which they expect monetary compensation perhaps they should just stop and put in the extra time in their business. Yes, from my persepective it is extra time because I firmly believe none of us would put this forum ahead of our clients whether for the profit or for the honor involved in conducting good business.
- A dependable website on a Unix server can be obtained for less than $10.00 per month. A dependable Windows site (ASP?) can be obtained for as little as $24.00. These numbers are based on a lot of looking for inexpensive servers and reflect actual prices I've run across and usually require 2 or 3 year commitments. I'm using one now that I have yet to discover has been down for any reason in over a year.
- The forum software is really great! I haven't checked out pricing for it (maybe I should for the one site I pay for that has a veteran's forum), but I don't think we're talking thousands of dollars.
- There are over 900 members, most of which would not be here if membership was limited to those who forked over money. Our illustrious Stunt Moderator/founder pointed that out in an earlier po0st
- I'll think of more points later, but the last one I want to make now is that the majority of information provided is not from the founders, moderators or webmaster; it is from the MEMBERS. Will the members get paid for each post? A silly as that question might seem to some readers, why should anyone else get paid when the purpose of the forum is to provide information and the majority of the information is provided not by the founder/moderators/webmaster?
So, what is the final cost excluding labor? I don't think it matters a whole lot unless the site goes "pay". I do think anyone currently providing financial support could easily be recompensed by donations.
Again, this is the best software I've yet seen for a forum, the members are much more polite and professional than in any other forum in which I've participated, and it is, in all respects, a superlative example of an internet community reflecing positively on the business community and vice versa.
There ain't no free lunch; someone eventually has to pick up the tab. Right now it is the volunteers that are taking such great care of the rest of us and the members that bother to post and respond (hey, I'm taking time from my miniscule business to post this one, so, yes, I'm not ashamed to call myself one of payers).
Edited to add this comment: Public television recieves a good portion of their operating budget from Federal and State coffers. That's the tax payers, better known as YOU, so, yeah, we pay for Public TV because we're the public that pays the taxes. And I don't watch public TV (heck, I bet I watch 4 hours of TV a month)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by MICHAEL
From: bluepaw [#10]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
To get right to my point.
Yes, I would pay to be a member of this forum for many reasons, two of which are...
1. It provides something of value to me.
I subscribe to industry magazines only because they give me something for my money. I see no difference here.
2. It provides entertainment which may be the most valuable because it takes me away from the everyday hustle and helps renew my energy.
There are dozens more but most of you know what they are.
Of course the membership will drop if it goes pay but that could be a good thing. The deadwood will be eliminated (an I mean that in the kindest way) and what is left will be dedicated members who want something of value and are willing to give back in kind.
And even though you can easily come up with a cost of operation figure, it will not contain the wealth of knowledge that is here, it will not contain the inestimable value of years of experience that is here and it will not contain the generosity and comradeship that I have seen here.
And never underestimate the time involved in moderating a forum. I speak from experience, for I participated in establishing and operating a forum once. It did not last long when I realized that I was spending more time keeping the forum going than I was doing my work.
The bottom line is I encourage some sort of reasonable pay-as-we-go arrangement. As one of those here who receives much more than I give maybe I have a bit more to gain than others but we each have to come from our particular perspective.
My only suggestion is that we never lose sight of why we are here. To help each other with problems and to give from what we have learned from experience. Lord knows, being a new engraver I am learning a lot from experience, expecially how not to do it.
Bill
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#11]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#9] 16 Jul 2005
Michael,
I am of the opinion that a person could make a full-time job out of forum moderating, but I believe David's vision is much greater than that. The Engraving Etc. website that is being worked on will hopefully be of equal or greater value to all of us. I am excited to support and be a part of something that will be an important part of our industry for a long time to come.
To maintain a website of value, one needs to offer something unique, and current. While the forum will be a part of that, it will just be a part of why you come to EngravingEtc.
I and others here have given David a sizable list of website features we think would be of great value to our industry. He also has some great thoughts of his own. It will become more than a full-time job to get this project completed and to maintain current accurate information, articles, video presentations, etc. That is where the true expense comes in. For our benefit, someone will need to steer this ship, and yes, that does come at a great expense, one I am willing to pay for.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#9] 16 Jul 2005
As you correctly point out, the financial costs of operating the forum are minimal.
Here's a question to which I don't have an answer.
"Why are the existing A&E Industry related forums, or many of the forums which discuss some of the processes we cover, relatively inactive?
Some go for days and weeks without a post. That's particularly strange, since many of those forum members are seen here as well.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#13]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
David,
David T mentioned an EE website. First time I have heard about it. Can you explain a bit please?
Also, out of the 900 or so forum members do you have a number that reflects the "actual" users? The ones that post on a regular basis?
Thanks
From: Michael [#14]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
You'll have to ask the folks that leave because I have no idea.
Financial was only one point I made against this becoming a pay site.
Pay/donate/free is going to be a sore point just like it was on DSSI ( I left for other reasons, but now that I hear it's pay I definitely won't go back).
If the financial aspect is the only thing folks want to look at, how much are you going to pay me for each post?
There are already comparisons between this forum and industry magazines. Magazines pay for people to write the words that fill them, why not here, too?
From: Shaddy [#15]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
From the posts when this was first brought up, it's clear that changing it into a pay site isn't just about a little money to help compensate for time and money spent. It's a business venture. If it was just money, the donation idea would have already been tried, but it doesn't appear that it's going to be.
Although we did have some effect with the Ethics Commitee idea, this one involves more. I'm guessing not just money.
Depending one the cost, I'll most likely sign up and pay. My only problem from the begining has been the people just starting and looking for research, maybe people not in the industry yet. THey certainly aren't going to pay to join to ask questions. There will be other free sites and probably ad's elsewhere that explain that this is a great site and worth the money, so there will be people signing up regardless. But there will be people that won't also. It was mentioned before that putting the word FREE up stopped interest in a different venture, looking at the amount of people here, I'd say that that didn't hold true in this case... apples and oranges.
Again I say, try the donation thing, maybe through pay-pal. You might be surprised on how much money you get, especially from people that get an idea from this site that paid off well. Some people won't ever pay, regardless of what info they get, but those are the people that probably wouldn't pay to join.
But I digress
Have a good weekend
Shaddy
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Michael,
DSSI at its current domain http://dyesub.org has not gone pay at this point.
On the issue of paying for posts, I can't speak for the other David, but I know he has in his plans to compensate people for writing featured weekly and/or monthly articles.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DATAKES
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16] 16 Jul 2005
David,
Unless I'm missing something it has in fact gone pay. There is a "basic" membership, but it is "ad" supported and has limited search features. If you want more it costs $60.00 a year.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
David,
In reviewing this thread I am thinking that you need to divulge more of your "vision"
Right now, the forum as it exists is a great "community" of friends bound by a common interest in a common industry trying to help other friends succeed. Personally, I would never charge a friend for helping them.
However, if I have read between the lines correctly, there will be a website connected with EE. Squinting at the fine print between the line, that website once it is up, will have many resources including a video training archive, (possible even "live" video seminars... and more. The "more" is what I think you need to expound upon in discussions of going "pay" so member have an inkling of what they will be getting for their hard earned dollars.
Also, if any of the members are stock traders of anykind, they know that one needs to pay for research, such as Morningstar, Standard & Poor etc.... what they are paying for is information. On EE what we would be paying for would be information, training, sources and hopefully more.
Either way I think it is important to know.
Just my two cents. Want change?
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17] 16 Jul 2005
Chuck,
If we are talking about the same forum, they have done a horrendous job of communicating that change. I don't see anything on the site that indicates this change, nor have I ever been e-mailed a notice. It appears to be functioning the way it always has.
From: UncleSteve [#20]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I think there is confusion between the DSSI forum and the HOSTING company, Delphi Forums.....
The fees are for Dephi membership which provides different levels of access/ads/features.
The fees are NOT paid to or used by DSSI in any form.
Cherie DOES accept paid ads to support the DSSI forum itself.
Now that it is www.dyesub.org, the fees should be a non-issue.
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