Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: Michael [#14]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
You'll have to ask the folks that leave because I have no idea.
Financial was only one point I made against this becoming a pay site.
Pay/donate/free is going to be a sore point just like it was on DSSI ( I left for other reasons, but now that I hear it's pay I definitely won't go back).
If the financial aspect is the only thing folks want to look at, how much are you going to pay me for each post?
There are already comparisons between this forum and industry magazines. Magazines pay for people to write the words that fill them, why not here, too?
From: Shaddy [#15]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
From the posts when this was first brought up, it's clear that changing it into a pay site isn't just about a little money to help compensate for time and money spent. It's a business venture. If it was just money, the donation idea would have already been tried, but it doesn't appear that it's going to be.
Although we did have some effect with the Ethics Commitee idea, this one involves more. I'm guessing not just money.
Depending one the cost, I'll most likely sign up and pay. My only problem from the begining has been the people just starting and looking for research, maybe people not in the industry yet. THey certainly aren't going to pay to join to ask questions. There will be other free sites and probably ad's elsewhere that explain that this is a great site and worth the money, so there will be people signing up regardless. But there will be people that won't also. It was mentioned before that putting the word FREE up stopped interest in a different venture, looking at the amount of people here, I'd say that that didn't hold true in this case... apples and oranges.
Again I say, try the donation thing, maybe through pay-pal. You might be surprised on how much money you get, especially from people that get an idea from this site that paid off well. Some people won't ever pay, regardless of what info they get, but those are the people that probably wouldn't pay to join.
But I digress
Have a good weekend
Shaddy
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Michael,
DSSI at its current domain http://dyesub.org has not gone pay at this point.
On the issue of paying for posts, I can't speak for the other David, but I know he has in his plans to compensate people for writing featured weekly and/or monthly articles.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DATAKES
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16] 16 Jul 2005
David,
Unless I'm missing something it has in fact gone pay. There is a "basic" membership, but it is "ad" supported and has limited search features. If you want more it costs $60.00 a year.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
David,
In reviewing this thread I am thinking that you need to divulge more of your "vision"
Right now, the forum as it exists is a great "community" of friends bound by a common interest in a common industry trying to help other friends succeed. Personally, I would never charge a friend for helping them.
However, if I have read between the lines correctly, there will be a website connected with EE. Squinting at the fine print between the line, that website once it is up, will have many resources including a video training archive, (possible even "live" video seminars... and more. The "more" is what I think you need to expound upon in discussions of going "pay" so member have an inkling of what they will be getting for their hard earned dollars.
Also, if any of the members are stock traders of anykind, they know that one needs to pay for research, such as Morningstar, Standard & Poor etc.... what they are paying for is information. On EE what we would be paying for would be information, training, sources and hopefully more.
Either way I think it is important to know.
Just my two cents. Want change?
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17] 16 Jul 2005
Chuck,
If we are talking about the same forum, they have done a horrendous job of communicating that change. I don't see anything on the site that indicates this change, nor have I ever been e-mailed a notice. It appears to be functioning the way it always has.
From: UncleSteve [#20]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I think there is confusion between the DSSI forum and the HOSTING company, Delphi Forums.....
The fees are for Dephi membership which provides different levels of access/ads/features.
The fees are NOT paid to or used by DSSI in any form.
Cherie DOES accept paid ads to support the DSSI forum itself.
Now that it is www.dyesub.org, the fees should be a non-issue.
From: bluepaw [#21]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am too new here to be offering suggestions. So instead of offering my 2 cents worth I will give 0 cents worth. Take it for what it's worth.
I think the donation route is the wrong way to go. I would gladly pay a fee as long as it is universal and everyone pays.
I would not donate...
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#22]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
Steve,
That would explain why I am having trouble logging on.......I think......hmmmmmmmmmm
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Well, that makes two of us who can't explain why this forum is more active than most of its kind. People who have already left probably won't be in a position to shed much light on the subject.
Forum threads are generally a brief, collective exchange of information, to benefit all, in which contributors participate voluntarily.
Have you ever benefitted from reading a thread of which you weren't a participant?
If so, let me know what dollar amount you would personally be willing to pay for that post or collection of posts. We'll consider that number, in weighing the concept of a per-post payment model :-)
DSSI remains a free forum. The pay topic, wherever it may be raised, will always be a sore point for some and less so for others. No surprise there.
The web site will have an area for articles. We'll encourage people to write articles and compensate the authors for their work.
There's a big difference between creating an informative forum post and tackling a full-blown magazine article. Magazines are looking for well-written, well-articulated, comprehensive articles, which are subject to a minimum word count as well as support materials, i.e. photos. Rodney Gold's recent "Laser ideas" post would certainly qualify.
Also, consider this:
Monthly magazine issues, quite often, center around a "theme." One issue may focus on laser engraving, the next issue may highlight sublimation, etc., etc.
Magazines also need time to rally advertisers around those themes, not to mention the actual layout and printing of the magazine.
When we hit our stride, we'll be able to rapidly post articles without concern over a particular theme, advertiser participation or printer deadlines.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#24]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
UncleSteve,
Thank you for pointing out the distinction between the two forums.
I apologize for posting mis information about the DSSI forum. My Bad....
somebody spank me.......
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 16 Jul 2005
We have the ability to become a pay site immediately. We could do it tomorrow. The reason we've been holding off, instead of talking about what's in store, we'd rather show you.
When we make that move, admittedly, the various sections won't immediately be heavily-populated.
A full-page events calendar as well as a searchable supplier database will be a couple of the features. Videotaped "how to" procedures, and member spotlights are a couple more.
I've personally found this forum so helpful and so informative that even without the articles, videotapes, supplier database or any other proposed features, I'd be onboard with a pay forum - as is - today!
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#26]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 16 Jul 2005
I've held off commenting on this subject because I do tend to be a cheapsake at times (okay, "thrifty" sounds better) and I rarely pay for any additional online resources (cable internet is expensive enough!) I was absolutely AMAZED to have found a forum like this, especially for free. As previously mentioned by others, if I were a brand new member I probably would not have paid to join, which would have been a very unfortunate mistake. (Perhaps a brief trial period should be considered if the forum goes pay.)
HOWEVER, as a new business owner (and thanks to many comments on this board) I'm learning to value time in a whole new way. Looking back at all that I have learned in the short time I've visited this board and looking forward to what you have in store for us, (VERY excited about what you've mentioned by the way) I would be more than happy to become a paying member of this site if that's what it comes to.
Do I look forward to an additional (even modest) expense? No, but I truly feel this forum has been an amazing asset to my business. For me personally it may very well be the most important resource I have access to. Never in a million years would I have been able to "meet" and converse with so many intelligent industry leaders. Heck, most of the time I'm just reading what you all say to others since I don't have a whole lot to jump in and contribute yet. I also enjoy meeting others who are in the same boat as me and just getting their feet wet.
If I hadn't had the opportunity to chat with Dee and Harvey on the forum ahead of time there's little chance, okay...honestly NO CHANCE I would have had the guts to walk into their store and introduce myself when I was in the area. Previously I always felt like other engravers would see me as a threat even if I was a newbie and multiple states away. Many of us have e-commerce sites so we all potentially have the same customers...Why in the world would a "competitor" want to give me the time of day let alone answer any and all of my questions and then some? What could I possibly offer them in return? But that's the beauty of this forum - rather than try to hold each other down we're all so open and willilng to help each other in any way we can. The wonderful result is we all benefit and grow. I don't even see that kind of camaraderie in my local business network.
Going back to how I, the cheapskate, splurged on cable internet, I guess that's how I'd put paying for the forum into perspective...now that I've experienced the sheer power and added value of it, there's no way I'm going back to dial up, no matter what the cost!
From: UncleSteve [#27]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am amazed at those that "wouldn't pay if this forum went to a pay format". And this is without even knowing how much it would be!!!
I doubt if there is anyone who is serious about their engraving business that hasn't or won't increase their bottom line by well over $1000 in their first year as a member here.
I would consider it an education cost just as going to a trade show and attending one of the seminars.
There is a differerence between being "cheap", "frugal" and carefully watching one's investments in their business...... education being one of the latter and possibly the most rewarding both in knowledge and $$'s.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
Ladies and Germs
I'm sitting here reading in between switching out switch plates... ( a job for a hotel labeling their switch plates so the tourist know which switch is which) .... $4 and a minute a plate.....I think I could afford to pay....
But I digress.....one thing to remember is that like all business expense, membership ( forum ) dues are TAX DEDUCTIBLE!!!! So you really aren't paying for this forum at all B-)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by C_BURKE
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#27] 16 Jul 2005
OK, time to pipe in.
First, we need to disband the concept that this is a "free of cost" forum. Although we are asked for any money, it is expected that we will share information whenever possible with each other. This takes our time away from our businesses, just as much as it does the moderators time to create the forum and moderate. (fortunately, there is little or no moderation needed).
I'm not in the same business as you folks, I don't engrave, I don't sandblast, and I don't sublimate beyond personal stuff at Christmas. And yet, I read the posts nearly everyday....it is not time yet for me to stop learning.
I'm not an advocate for a pay based forum, certainly not until I see some of the mystical content that we are being promised. Nothing makes me more angry than when my cable company raises my rates, promising more channels in the future...never to be seen without even more increases! I feel that at this point, the bulk of the information offered here is as a result of the efforts of the members...and compensation is the shared learning.
Now, when we see something of content, it certainly is to be considered. I believe that the concept of 900 active members, even lurkers is a hugh stretch, be surprised if there was half that many...depending on price set, it could be such a paltry amount that it would barely cover expenses.
I have belonged to many organizations over my professional life, all have collected at least a modest fee to belong...to cover expenses. The group sharing of information and expectation of mutual sharing was the other "fee".
As for the pay system of this forum being so as to make it a revenue generator for the "owner and moderators"...count me out....unless possibly I become one of ya and can actually use the information.
Nuff said from me!
Doug
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#30]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I could not and never would argue the value of this forum. Why it is so populated when others are not, I do not know, but I suspect it has something to do with the sense of commraderie that I do not feel on other forums. This forum has a "personality" to it.
But I would dissagree that you are missing an opportunity by not talking a bit about the new features that will become available when the site goes to a pay venue.
The reason I say this is two fold. First, members that are on the fence about paying would be able to have a sense of what they would be getting for their money, and secondly, it might spark some ideas and discussion about features and benefits that you and the other moderators have not thought about.
If you intent truly is to provide for the betterment of the members and the industry as a whole ( and I believe it is), then I think member input would be very important.
My two cents. Want change?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#31]
16 Jul 2005
To: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#26] 16 Jul 2005
Our subscription software, which will be integrated with PayPal, is configurable. We'll likely have Trial, Quarterly and Annual membership options.
Naturally, the annual membership will represent the best value. I may as well blurt it out now. The number I have in mind for an annual membership is $75.
I know, I know, I'm often lecturing about not undercharging :-)
Think about it!
That's roughly equivalent to one hour of an average shop's labor rate.
It's less than half the amount of an annual Awards and Recognition Association (ARA) membership and only $15 more than a non-member pass to the annual ARA Las Vegas show.
It's slightly more than the annual subscription rate of a trade magazine, though substantially (about $50.00) less than an annual International subscription to a trade magazine.
That's the extent of my hard sell for the pay site. :-)
Of our 900+ members, we have about 10% who show up religiously, every day. Assuming that core group comes along when we put up the toll booth, I consider that an excellent start. We can and will build from there.
I can relate to your observations of going from dial-up to high speed internet. Where I live, high speed internet wasn't even an option until just recently.
Once high speed internet became available, I signed up. It was more than I wanted to pay for internet access, but all it took was about 5 minutes (or less) of actual use and I couldn't imagine ever going back to dial-up.
I'm hoping people who visit the forum for the first time will see the value of becoming a member and consider us the high speed internet of the online forums. :-)
From: UncleSteve [#32]
16 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29] 17 Jul 2005
Doug, I am sorry to hear that none of the members are buying any of your wood products for engraving......
Oh! That would make you an industry supplier, wouldn't it?
:O
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#33]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#30] 16 Jul 2005
Suggest away. I believe we've done that in the past, but who knows? Maybe some new ideas will emerge.
Using my experience with www.dyesub.org as an example, it's the DSSI forum itself, that I personally see as the main draw.
I've occasionally read some of the articles and referred to the Industry Supplier listings, but day-in and day-out, it's the instant access to the almost-live give and take with others in the industry that brings me back.
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