Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: UncleSteve [#20]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I think there is confusion between the DSSI forum and the HOSTING company, Delphi Forums.....
The fees are for Dephi membership which provides different levels of access/ads/features.
The fees are NOT paid to or used by DSSI in any form.
Cherie DOES accept paid ads to support the DSSI forum itself.
Now that it is www.dyesub.org, the fees should be a non-issue.
From: bluepaw [#21]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am too new here to be offering suggestions. So instead of offering my 2 cents worth I will give 0 cents worth. Take it for what it's worth.
I think the donation route is the wrong way to go. I would gladly pay a fee as long as it is universal and everyone pays.
I would not donate...
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#22]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
Steve,
That would explain why I am having trouble logging on.......I think......hmmmmmmmmmm
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Well, that makes two of us who can't explain why this forum is more active than most of its kind. People who have already left probably won't be in a position to shed much light on the subject.
Forum threads are generally a brief, collective exchange of information, to benefit all, in which contributors participate voluntarily.
Have you ever benefitted from reading a thread of which you weren't a participant?
If so, let me know what dollar amount you would personally be willing to pay for that post or collection of posts. We'll consider that number, in weighing the concept of a per-post payment model :-)
DSSI remains a free forum. The pay topic, wherever it may be raised, will always be a sore point for some and less so for others. No surprise there.
The web site will have an area for articles. We'll encourage people to write articles and compensate the authors for their work.
There's a big difference between creating an informative forum post and tackling a full-blown magazine article. Magazines are looking for well-written, well-articulated, comprehensive articles, which are subject to a minimum word count as well as support materials, i.e. photos. Rodney Gold's recent "Laser ideas" post would certainly qualify.
Also, consider this:
Monthly magazine issues, quite often, center around a "theme." One issue may focus on laser engraving, the next issue may highlight sublimation, etc., etc.
Magazines also need time to rally advertisers around those themes, not to mention the actual layout and printing of the magazine.
When we hit our stride, we'll be able to rapidly post articles without concern over a particular theme, advertiser participation or printer deadlines.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#24]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
UncleSteve,
Thank you for pointing out the distinction between the two forums.
I apologize for posting mis information about the DSSI forum. My Bad....
somebody spank me.......
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 16 Jul 2005
We have the ability to become a pay site immediately. We could do it tomorrow. The reason we've been holding off, instead of talking about what's in store, we'd rather show you.
When we make that move, admittedly, the various sections won't immediately be heavily-populated.
A full-page events calendar as well as a searchable supplier database will be a couple of the features. Videotaped "how to" procedures, and member spotlights are a couple more.
I've personally found this forum so helpful and so informative that even without the articles, videotapes, supplier database or any other proposed features, I'd be onboard with a pay forum - as is - today!
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#26]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 16 Jul 2005
I've held off commenting on this subject because I do tend to be a cheapsake at times (okay, "thrifty" sounds better) and I rarely pay for any additional online resources (cable internet is expensive enough!) I was absolutely AMAZED to have found a forum like this, especially for free. As previously mentioned by others, if I were a brand new member I probably would not have paid to join, which would have been a very unfortunate mistake. (Perhaps a brief trial period should be considered if the forum goes pay.)
HOWEVER, as a new business owner (and thanks to many comments on this board) I'm learning to value time in a whole new way. Looking back at all that I have learned in the short time I've visited this board and looking forward to what you have in store for us, (VERY excited about what you've mentioned by the way) I would be more than happy to become a paying member of this site if that's what it comes to.
Do I look forward to an additional (even modest) expense? No, but I truly feel this forum has been an amazing asset to my business. For me personally it may very well be the most important resource I have access to. Never in a million years would I have been able to "meet" and converse with so many intelligent industry leaders. Heck, most of the time I'm just reading what you all say to others since I don't have a whole lot to jump in and contribute yet. I also enjoy meeting others who are in the same boat as me and just getting their feet wet.
If I hadn't had the opportunity to chat with Dee and Harvey on the forum ahead of time there's little chance, okay...honestly NO CHANCE I would have had the guts to walk into their store and introduce myself when I was in the area. Previously I always felt like other engravers would see me as a threat even if I was a newbie and multiple states away. Many of us have e-commerce sites so we all potentially have the same customers...Why in the world would a "competitor" want to give me the time of day let alone answer any and all of my questions and then some? What could I possibly offer them in return? But that's the beauty of this forum - rather than try to hold each other down we're all so open and willilng to help each other in any way we can. The wonderful result is we all benefit and grow. I don't even see that kind of camaraderie in my local business network.
Going back to how I, the cheapskate, splurged on cable internet, I guess that's how I'd put paying for the forum into perspective...now that I've experienced the sheer power and added value of it, there's no way I'm going back to dial up, no matter what the cost!
From: UncleSteve [#27]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am amazed at those that "wouldn't pay if this forum went to a pay format". And this is without even knowing how much it would be!!!
I doubt if there is anyone who is serious about their engraving business that hasn't or won't increase their bottom line by well over $1000 in their first year as a member here.
I would consider it an education cost just as going to a trade show and attending one of the seminars.
There is a differerence between being "cheap", "frugal" and carefully watching one's investments in their business...... education being one of the latter and possibly the most rewarding both in knowledge and $$'s.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
Ladies and Germs
I'm sitting here reading in between switching out switch plates... ( a job for a hotel labeling their switch plates so the tourist know which switch is which) .... $4 and a minute a plate.....I think I could afford to pay....
But I digress.....one thing to remember is that like all business expense, membership ( forum ) dues are TAX DEDUCTIBLE!!!! So you really aren't paying for this forum at all B-)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by C_BURKE
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#27] 16 Jul 2005
OK, time to pipe in.
First, we need to disband the concept that this is a "free of cost" forum. Although we are asked for any money, it is expected that we will share information whenever possible with each other. This takes our time away from our businesses, just as much as it does the moderators time to create the forum and moderate. (fortunately, there is little or no moderation needed).
I'm not in the same business as you folks, I don't engrave, I don't sandblast, and I don't sublimate beyond personal stuff at Christmas. And yet, I read the posts nearly everyday....it is not time yet for me to stop learning.
I'm not an advocate for a pay based forum, certainly not until I see some of the mystical content that we are being promised. Nothing makes me more angry than when my cable company raises my rates, promising more channels in the future...never to be seen without even more increases! I feel that at this point, the bulk of the information offered here is as a result of the efforts of the members...and compensation is the shared learning.
Now, when we see something of content, it certainly is to be considered. I believe that the concept of 900 active members, even lurkers is a hugh stretch, be surprised if there was half that many...depending on price set, it could be such a paltry amount that it would barely cover expenses.
I have belonged to many organizations over my professional life, all have collected at least a modest fee to belong...to cover expenses. The group sharing of information and expectation of mutual sharing was the other "fee".
As for the pay system of this forum being so as to make it a revenue generator for the "owner and moderators"...count me out....unless possibly I become one of ya and can actually use the information.
Nuff said from me!
Doug
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#30]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I could not and never would argue the value of this forum. Why it is so populated when others are not, I do not know, but I suspect it has something to do with the sense of commraderie that I do not feel on other forums. This forum has a "personality" to it.
But I would dissagree that you are missing an opportunity by not talking a bit about the new features that will become available when the site goes to a pay venue.
The reason I say this is two fold. First, members that are on the fence about paying would be able to have a sense of what they would be getting for their money, and secondly, it might spark some ideas and discussion about features and benefits that you and the other moderators have not thought about.
If you intent truly is to provide for the betterment of the members and the industry as a whole ( and I believe it is), then I think member input would be very important.
My two cents. Want change?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#31]
16 Jul 2005
To: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#26] 16 Jul 2005
Our subscription software, which will be integrated with PayPal, is configurable. We'll likely have Trial, Quarterly and Annual membership options.
Naturally, the annual membership will represent the best value. I may as well blurt it out now. The number I have in mind for an annual membership is $75.
I know, I know, I'm often lecturing about not undercharging :-)
Think about it!
That's roughly equivalent to one hour of an average shop's labor rate.
It's less than half the amount of an annual Awards and Recognition Association (ARA) membership and only $15 more than a non-member pass to the annual ARA Las Vegas show.
It's slightly more than the annual subscription rate of a trade magazine, though substantially (about $50.00) less than an annual International subscription to a trade magazine.
That's the extent of my hard sell for the pay site. :-)
Of our 900+ members, we have about 10% who show up religiously, every day. Assuming that core group comes along when we put up the toll booth, I consider that an excellent start. We can and will build from there.
I can relate to your observations of going from dial-up to high speed internet. Where I live, high speed internet wasn't even an option until just recently.
Once high speed internet became available, I signed up. It was more than I wanted to pay for internet access, but all it took was about 5 minutes (or less) of actual use and I couldn't imagine ever going back to dial-up.
I'm hoping people who visit the forum for the first time will see the value of becoming a member and consider us the high speed internet of the online forums. :-)
From: UncleSteve [#32]
16 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29] 17 Jul 2005
Doug, I am sorry to hear that none of the members are buying any of your wood products for engraving......
Oh! That would make you an industry supplier, wouldn't it?
:O
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#33]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#30] 16 Jul 2005
Suggest away. I believe we've done that in the past, but who knows? Maybe some new ideas will emerge.
Using my experience with www.dyesub.org as an example, it's the DSSI forum itself, that I personally see as the main draw.
I've occasionally read some of the articles and referred to the Industry Supplier listings, but day-in and day-out, it's the instant access to the almost-live give and take with others in the industry that brings me back.
From: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#34]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#31] 16 Jul 2005
I can swing $75/yr; it's significantly less this forum is worth, but it's an affordable start for us frugal people. Education IS money well spent. (And I'm still paying on my student loans by the way) :P
I haven't subscribed to any industry magazines or memberships yet :::gasp::: :O (Shame on me!) but I will get around to it. As I've said, this forum is most valueable to me and therefore my main priority right now.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#35]
16 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29] 17 Jul 2005
Doug,
To continue to grow around the foundation of this forum it is going to take a great deal of time to administer the effort, and that could potentially mean the investment in a salaried individual focused specifically on that task, along with the support of our stupendous tech, John Fish.
So much of what David wants to do is in the conceptual stage because it takes so much time to move it from concept to action. It will not happen on its own, without David sacrificing a substantial amount of his time, therefore, a graet amount of his persnal income.
You may look at it as David trying to make an extra buck. This couldn't be further from the truth. I know the man and I look at it as David's willingness to work his tail off to build an even better tool for me to become a better businessman with stronger technical skills, which will in turn contribute strongly to my bottom line. We just haven't given him the incentive to sacrifice his time and income. This is why the enhancement process will continue to flow at a snail's pace, rather than at a speed that will end up improving our bottom lines more quickly.
Say what you may, but I would love to provide enough revenue for David to give 100% of his time to this effort. We could hit the road running and see exactly what he has in the plans for us.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DATAKES
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#36]
16 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29] 17 Jul 2005
Some may say the move to a pay site will signal the beginning of the serious discussion.
While I'm not looking to exclude anyone, the curiosity seekers and casual readers, faced with the decision to pay, may eliminate themselves.
From: bluepaw [#37]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#31] 16 Jul 2005
Now that I have stuck my nose in with a couple of posts on this subject, I will make one more comment and then shut up.
You mentioned a possible annual subscription price of $75.00. I don't know how that compares with other forums that charge a fee and I suppose it is not set in stone at this time but for me it is a bit expensive.
I'm not saying that the information here is not worth that much and more but just not within my budget at this time.
$50.00 would seem a reasonable and affordable price.
I really hope that none of you take offense that a newbie like me would insert my opinion here but that is all it is and should be taken as such.
I love this forum and check in multiple times a day and probably have learned more than most from it. Now I will zip it and let the experts sort it out.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#38]
16 Jul 2005
To: bluepaw [#37] 16 Jul 2005
I'm always open to suggestion and your comments are welcome anytime. No need to zip it up.
It's difficult to compare this forum to others. It seems we regularly break some of their rules.
1) Although rare, we've discussed the taboo subjects of politics and religion, sexual predators and drugs.
2) We continuously mention other forums of interest.
3) We don't handcuff industry suppliers, by sending them to their room for lightly grinding their axe in an educational thread.
4) We don't rely on advertising dollars for our existence.
Maybe I'm answering my own question. Maybe that's why we've become one of the more popular forums :-)
Most people are expert at something. If there's anything in your area of expertise which would be of interest to the forum members, maybe you could come up with an article on that topic and earn a multi-year, free-ride scholarship :-)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#39]
16 Jul 2005
To: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#34] 16 Jul 2005
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