Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: UncleSteve [#41]
17 Jul 2005
To: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#40] 17 Jul 2005
Laura (and ALL),
The "typical" engraving shop is open 5-6 days a week. That is 260-300 days a year.
Going back to my accounting days, we are looking at .25-.30 per day... I go back to my "argument" that if this forum can't increase the bottom line by this amount, the forum is NOT worth it to that person.
$1.25 per week is ONE cup of Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts coffee or ONE beer for those of you that prefer that beverage..... It is about 5-7 cigarettes at today's prices in major markets..... This is per WEEK, not per DAY.
So......... we can get healthier without spending a penny more than we do now by just giving up one of the above once a week!
:-)
Message 1603.42 was deleted
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#43]
17 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#36] 17 Jul 2005
While I'm not looking to exclude anyone, the curiosity seekers and casual readers, faced with the decision to pay, may eliminate themselves.
Count on it!
Doug
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#44]
17 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#43] 17 Jul 2005
There is still the option for the old EE. That forum will still be viable, and will still be a place to go for those that don't want to pay...yes it has some banner ads, but so will this forum.
I suspect there will be a split set of factions. Those that are stubborn enough to shift back to delphi forums EE and continue on for free, and those that want the smaller more active group that you would get with a pay forum. I honestly don't see this forum growing at all without a free trial period if David is looking for 50-75 annual subscription. My experience with people that are internet savy is that they expect most information to be cost free (outside of the cost of their cable bill anyway). The internet is pretty much founded around the free exchange of information....
This should a very interesting experiment.
I have seen a professional photographers forum that has a two tiered system. you must have a certain number of helpful posts on their entry level free forum before you can join their pay forum at around 60 bucks a year. This keeps the "professionals" in a group to themselves and protects them somewhat from the general competition that is out there otherwise I guess. My understanding is that this forum is around 1200 paying members at this time.
Brian G.
From: Michael [#45]
17 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#27] 17 Jul 2005
You might be right, but how about providing some substantiating evidence for that bottom line. Please note I'm not asking for rock solid proof that this forum will make us all rich if we toss our own money in the pot, just some evidence your numbers are real.
Added after seeing your numbers to Laura:
I spend a good hour a week here. 5% or less of the posts I read could have any positve impact on my bottom line (ie, a tip to save me time or a suggested resource for services or products, etc) If my shop rate is $75/hour, that leaves $71.25 per week that I spend here that has no positive financial impact . Money or time spent that does not create profit is a loss; No matter what the cost of a subscription to this forum, my loss for each week would be $71.25. That's over $3,000 for a year.
Like you, I'm quite amazed...that people are willing to pay for this forum just because some one said, "Let's make it a pay format".
I think the forum is great. If it becomes a commercial endeavor, that's great, too, and I'll be one of the first to cheer it on, albeit, from an unseen sideline because I won't pay for it, period.
Once this becomes a commercial endeavor, the sense of community will go out the window. I think this answers a recent question directed towards me as to why other engraving forums recieve one or two posts a week and why members of other forums come here regularly.
EDITED: 17 Jul 2005 by MICHAEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46]
17 Jul 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#44] 18 Jul 2005
Thank you for reminding people the Dephi "Engravers" forum, which we use as a backup, is alive and well and fully-functional.
The times I've mentioned that option myself, had people feeling like I was pointing them out the door. That's not the case. I encourage those not interested in a pay forum to repopulate and revive the Delphi forum.
Actually, for the time being, you won't see banner ads on that forum. Before we moved here, I paid for an extended period of ad-free reading.
The concept of a pay forum isn't in the experimental stages at all. My wife belongs to www.photoworkshop.com which is a thriving pay site with virtually thousands of members paying $99 per year.
As for EE, we're in our 6th year of a "Free Trial."
Wouldn't you say that's ample?
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#47]
17 Jul 2005
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#29] 18 Jul 2005
Interesting comment. I know I've only place one order with you so far...
But I wouldn't have you as a supplier if you weren't on this forum. (I'm not saying I'm going to stop buying. I learned of your business through your posts.)
From: UncleSteve [#48]
17 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#45] 18 Jul 2005
Michael, If you are missing out on profitable work just to read the forum, well........ perhaps you MIGHT take another look at your priorities.
I wouldn't expect anyone to come to the forum instead of doing orders UNLESS they ran into a problem and needed help right then and there.
As for specifics on my numbers, I will let you confirm the costs of what you would be giving up in your market.
As for increased income, there are more than enough posts saying "OH! That is how you do it" or "I just saved X steps by trying it your way." Let's not forget the posts "I had a customer ask for...... and I have never done it. Can anybody help?"
BTW, how much ARE the "5% or less" worth?
I am NOT saying anyone should spend a penny on membership unless they feel they are getting their money's worth... but I also don't believe anyone should try to disuade someone from continuing in a "Pay to play" forum just so THEY won't lose their free ride.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#49]
17 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46] 18 Jul 2005
Wouldn't you say that's ample?
Dave,
I'd say that's ample for people who've been on it for a few of weeks. Won't help someone who will be a newbie next year.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50]
17 Jul 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#49] 17 Jul 2005
Ken,
Your point about the newbies is an important one. A few of the ideas that have been tossed around to entice the newbies are:
1) On the home page of the EE website, list the ten most current threads being discussed.
2) Provide a link to a web page that gives examples of some of our more interesting threads.
3) To allow them to read, but not post questions, for a free 30 day trial period.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#51]
17 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46] 18 Jul 2005
It's not in the "Links of Interest" list.
===
Reading this and past threads, I get the idea the main benefit/reason for 'going pay' isn't the forum, its all the 'other things that will be coming.'
I don't know if it's already been considered, and ruled out; another option is to keep the forum free and collect membership for the other features.
If the 'axe grinding' rules are adhered to, the forum can become the best marketing tool for the pay services.
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#52]
17 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50] 17 Jul 2005
I would go with option 3, 'allow them to read but not post'.
But from what's being hinted at, the forum will only be a part of the offering. Would that 30 days reading extend to the articles and other areas?
The ten most current list might not include "which laser should I buy" or the other topics that are popular with newbies. A chosen sampling would be more valuable. Though someone paying to learn which laser is 'the best' might not be too happy...
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#53]
17 Jul 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#52] 17 Jul 2005
Ken,
I like option 3 as well, because it gives a the prospect a more complete view of what they will be getting.
The way I understand it, there will be a public side to the website and a private secured side. I assume there is the potential to offer advertising opportunities on the public side of the site.
One of the many things I have recommended is establishing a sister website to the EE site that will be used to promote the services of subscribing members to the general public. Sort of a here's-where-you-can-buy website with a search by zip code and service option.
I believe this thing will really grow from the ideas that are shared by the members. It will evolve into something of great value, but it will take time and $.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#54]
17 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#53] 18 Jul 2005
David,
Personally I think a 15 day FREE trial of EVERYTHING would be more viable. At the end of that 15 days, ones password and sign in is revoked. Period. No if's ands or buts.
When I signed up with SAGE, I got a 30 day free trial. When it was over, I could not log back on.
I think a free trial will be critical to enticing "newbies" ( we were all newbies at one time, in fact, "I" still am a newbie ). Once here if they feel it is of value they will stay. If not, they won't.
Again I think it would be helpful in discussion of this whole idea to let the membership know of what the "offereings" will be, so those that are on the fence will know what it is they will be getting. For reasons un-beknownst to me, ( and I am sure they are valid reasons) that information seems to be being held close to the belt. I think it should be divulged.
Just my two cents. Want change?
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#55]
17 Jul 2005
To: ALL
A commercial, money making venture? It may appear to some that is what is intended, but they are wrong.
At this moment David is paying for the server and the software development, as well as for our tech, out of his own pocket. This is a work of love for him, not for profit.
As far as time, there have been things that a lot of time was spent on, but were decided as not viable. The Ethics Committee thing was only one of them, people told us what they thought and it died a terrible death. So be it, this forum is for the users.
We have been very reticent to mention most things in the plans, because if one does not work out it is vaporware. That is something we want to avoid if at all possible.
David has a lot of ambitious plans. That equals lots, LOTS, of time and some finances also. They need to be done right or will not work right, again time and money.
Quick example. More things like EE Live, with reduced costs due to possible income from the forum. Form a moderator/director viewpoint, think about the time involved in just one event like that. I got lucky and did not have the faintest idea how to set that up. David and Dave did it all, with some help of members.
Profit would be nice, but with the plans I doubt there will ever be any, it will all be plowed back into the membership in one way or another.
Free is great, but a good return for a small investment is good also.
Oops, need to get off the soapbox now.
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#56]
17 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I drive the Pa & then the NJ turnpikes every day that I go to work. I pay big time tolls. The turpike trip is 77 miles one way and takes me 1hr and 10 min. I could take free roads. Same mileage (approx) but travel time is 2 hours. I'll pay and take the turnpikes.
When I have an engraving question I can do a lot of research and experimentation (and certainly make some wrong turns) or I can log on here and possibly "speak" to someone who has been there and done that. I'll pay the toll.
Dee
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#57]
17 Jul 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#55] 18 Jul 2005
You said....
Again I would disagree. I think that stating the "intention" or the "plan" or the "possible" additional services and offerings is necessary. Yes some of them might not work out. So what if they don't? It is still all in the planning stage. Some will work, some won't, but again I think that it is important to let people know the broad scope of the vision.
It has always been apparent to me that the motives behind this are altruistic..and if you search any threads regarding this with MY name you will find that I am very much in favor of covering the costs...and if someone makes a bit of a profit so what? No big deal in "my" opinion.....
BUT....
..... I think that sharing the vision will ultimately make the "pay pill" easier to swallow for those that are on the fence. I also believe that it will open a discussion about features that may not have been thought of. David L indicated I should suggest away. I am still too new to know what would be of value, but I do know that sharing and discussion of ideas spawn new ideas and solutions. You of all people as an engineer should know that to be true. That is why I firmly believe holding the "proposed benefits" close to the chest is a mistake.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#58]
18 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46] 18 Jul 2005
The free trial is for new member growth, not existing membership. I am not criticizing your choice to go pay....just expressing curiocity in how it will shake out. I tend to see both sides. I guess much of it depends on your goals. If your goals are to make a living off of this forum...I think both the membership and you will be dissapointed. If your goal is to cover costs....then $75 annual fee for each member is far to high a price to pay if everyone is honest with each other.
The magic in the bottle for both this forum and DSSI is the participation of the membership....not the management of it. Lose the membership base and you lose the magic. My personal opinoin is that if you want forum growth you must continue to invite forum participation. How you do that is anyone's guess. One way would be to sell advertising, and let that pay for advertising of the forum itself in trade mags. If you can't find any advertisers interested based on membership participation, I don't expect you will be able to hold the memberships interest in going pay either. In other words...if you can't give the vendors any reasons to pay, you will be hard pressed to get the members to do so. If you can get vendors to pay...it just might be enough to help continue to draw new membership and keep the "magic".
The fear I would have is that the 10% or 90 active members would eventually get tired of sharing the same information with each other. You need a forumula for growth to keep things fresh enough to keep the old coming back day after day, and the new interested enough to sign up.
From: Michael [#59]
18 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#48] 18 Jul 2005
I never said or implied I miss or ignore profitable work to read or post messages on this forum or any other. >.<
I have stated and implied in other threads and this one that I come here to learn, to get an occasional chuckle and to interact with the community represented here. :D
If you, as an "ex" accountant can't figure out what 5% of $75 is...well, that makes apparent why you are an ex-accountant. :P
So there are no more misunderstandings : my post was meant only to show how utterly ridiculous it is to toss out random numbers on "worth" of a valuable service such as EE. The worth is completely percieved and any possible contortions of numbers to prove it's financial worth to any member can apply only to that member unless there are verifiable true facts to support the stated "worth".
What's it worth to me? Right now it's worth every minute I spend here, now. Because
It's going to be a long day...finished that last sentence, brewed a fresh cup of tea, got back, and completely lost my train of thought (any one seen the caboose?)
You said, "but I also don't believe anyone should try to disuade someone from continuing in a "Pay to play" forum just so THEY won't lose their free ride." Again, you are trying to put paint on a canvas that isn't there. I never have and never will try to persuade or disuade anyone to leave this forum. (I have highly recomended it to 2 friends with an interest in engraving and one client who needed a service I don't provide.)
Pay for play? No...perhaps because my perception is that I'm already paying by having the phone service that brings the internet to me and having the adsl that rides that phone line and paying the taxes on both, etc, etc, etc. If David pops up and asks for donations, I hope my check is one of the first ones he receives. :-)
On the other hand, if you can provide a spread sheet with verifiable financial details that would offer good evidence that being a member of EE will increase the bottom line (ie spending one hour per week reading posts will save you 2 hours in production time, provide you with 3 new accounts, and increase your profit by 2.64% annually) I'd seriously reconsider my opinion and perception. :O
This forum has become a true community not because the members get financial gain from it, not because the members can take free pot shots at others who disagree with their opinions, not because David is a great guy (I think he is and one proof is the time and effort he puts into EE with no gain). Engraving Etc. has become a real community because it excludes no one. :-)
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#60]
18 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#57] 18 Jul 2005
Chuck,
There are so many things I would find of great value in an industry, educational, and resource member-based website. The forum would be part of that, but having other resources and educational opportunities at my finger tips would be of even greater benefit.
A few examples have been provided, but here are a few I think are within reach.
Provide digital video field trips through factories and member businesses. David is in the process of investing in this video equipment as I write.
Audio and video tutorials. Nothing further needs to be said about the value of this feature.
In-depth articles on a broad variety of topics, not subject to any particular scheduling restrictions.
A database, searchable by vendor, substrate, product, state, etc.
A database, searchable by forum member, service offered and state. What a great feature when an equipment failure puts you in a pinch.
A database or listing of special wording for awards and gifts, indexed by categories such as retirement, wedding, promotion, sponsorship, leadership, etc.
A comprensive collection of artwork layouts for plaques, acrylics, gifts, etc. that are downloadable.
A formal grading system produced annually which lists the top 5 or 10 vendors or service providers in their particular specialty.
The formation of a buying group that would negotiate on behalf of the members. When EE members purchase equipment, products or services from an Engraving Etc. Super Supplier, they would receive benefits such as improved terms, lower minimums, additional discounts, rebates and other special incentives.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. This can become as big as one wants to make it, but it takes the resources of time, money and support staff to do it.
I hope this gives you some more food for thought.
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