Full Version: Donation vs. Pay
From: Michael [#9]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
The very first thing I want to say (even though I don't own an engraver yet [maybe by Labor Day]) is that this forum has been invaluable in terms of $ as well as, in some cases, entertainment.
The second item is that I would not pay to read or post. However, on reflection I believe I would make donations from time to time. Here is why:
- This forum is offered as a public service even if the public to which it is directed is a small portion of the population. Correct me if I'm wrong in that perception.
- If the unpaid hours of the volunteers becomes a burden for which they expect monetary compensation perhaps they should just stop and put in the extra time in their business. Yes, from my persepective it is extra time because I firmly believe none of us would put this forum ahead of our clients whether for the profit or for the honor involved in conducting good business.
- A dependable website on a Unix server can be obtained for less than $10.00 per month. A dependable Windows site (ASP?) can be obtained for as little as $24.00. These numbers are based on a lot of looking for inexpensive servers and reflect actual prices I've run across and usually require 2 or 3 year commitments. I'm using one now that I have yet to discover has been down for any reason in over a year.
- The forum software is really great! I haven't checked out pricing for it (maybe I should for the one site I pay for that has a veteran's forum), but I don't think we're talking thousands of dollars.
- There are over 900 members, most of which would not be here if membership was limited to those who forked over money. Our illustrious Stunt Moderator/founder pointed that out in an earlier po0st
- I'll think of more points later, but the last one I want to make now is that the majority of information provided is not from the founders, moderators or webmaster; it is from the MEMBERS. Will the members get paid for each post? A silly as that question might seem to some readers, why should anyone else get paid when the purpose of the forum is to provide information and the majority of the information is provided not by the founder/moderators/webmaster?
So, what is the final cost excluding labor? I don't think it matters a whole lot unless the site goes "pay". I do think anyone currently providing financial support could easily be recompensed by donations.
Again, this is the best software I've yet seen for a forum, the members are much more polite and professional than in any other forum in which I've participated, and it is, in all respects, a superlative example of an internet community reflecing positively on the business community and vice versa.
There ain't no free lunch; someone eventually has to pick up the tab. Right now it is the volunteers that are taking such great care of the rest of us and the members that bother to post and respond (hey, I'm taking time from my miniscule business to post this one, so, yes, I'm not ashamed to call myself one of payers).
Edited to add this comment: Public television recieves a good portion of their operating budget from Federal and State coffers. That's the tax payers, better known as YOU, so, yeah, we pay for Public TV because we're the public that pays the taxes. And I don't watch public TV (heck, I bet I watch 4 hours of TV a month)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by MICHAEL
From: bluepaw [#10]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
To get right to my point.
Yes, I would pay to be a member of this forum for many reasons, two of which are...
1. It provides something of value to me.
I subscribe to industry magazines only because they give me something for my money. I see no difference here.
2. It provides entertainment which may be the most valuable because it takes me away from the everyday hustle and helps renew my energy.
There are dozens more but most of you know what they are.
Of course the membership will drop if it goes pay but that could be a good thing. The deadwood will be eliminated (an I mean that in the kindest way) and what is left will be dedicated members who want something of value and are willing to give back in kind.
And even though you can easily come up with a cost of operation figure, it will not contain the wealth of knowledge that is here, it will not contain the inestimable value of years of experience that is here and it will not contain the generosity and comradeship that I have seen here.
And never underestimate the time involved in moderating a forum. I speak from experience, for I participated in establishing and operating a forum once. It did not last long when I realized that I was spending more time keeping the forum going than I was doing my work.
The bottom line is I encourage some sort of reasonable pay-as-we-go arrangement. As one of those here who receives much more than I give maybe I have a bit more to gain than others but we each have to come from our particular perspective.
My only suggestion is that we never lose sight of why we are here. To help each other with problems and to give from what we have learned from experience. Lord knows, being a new engraver I am learning a lot from experience, expecially how not to do it.
Bill
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#11]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#9] 16 Jul 2005
Michael,
I am of the opinion that a person could make a full-time job out of forum moderating, but I believe David's vision is much greater than that. The Engraving Etc. website that is being worked on will hopefully be of equal or greater value to all of us. I am excited to support and be a part of something that will be an important part of our industry for a long time to come.
To maintain a website of value, one needs to offer something unique, and current. While the forum will be a part of that, it will just be a part of why you come to EngravingEtc.
I and others here have given David a sizable list of website features we think would be of great value to our industry. He also has some great thoughts of his own. It will become more than a full-time job to get this project completed and to maintain current accurate information, articles, video presentations, etc. That is where the true expense comes in. For our benefit, someone will need to steer this ship, and yes, that does come at a great expense, one I am willing to pay for.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#9] 16 Jul 2005
As you correctly point out, the financial costs of operating the forum are minimal.
Here's a question to which I don't have an answer.
"Why are the existing A&E Industry related forums, or many of the forums which discuss some of the processes we cover, relatively inactive?
Some go for days and weeks without a post. That's particularly strange, since many of those forum members are seen here as well.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#13]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
David,
David T mentioned an EE website. First time I have heard about it. Can you explain a bit please?
Also, out of the 900 or so forum members do you have a number that reflects the "actual" users? The ones that post on a regular basis?
Thanks
From: Michael [#14]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
You'll have to ask the folks that leave because I have no idea.
Financial was only one point I made against this becoming a pay site.
Pay/donate/free is going to be a sore point just like it was on DSSI ( I left for other reasons, but now that I hear it's pay I definitely won't go back).
If the financial aspect is the only thing folks want to look at, how much are you going to pay me for each post?
There are already comparisons between this forum and industry magazines. Magazines pay for people to write the words that fill them, why not here, too?
From: Shaddy [#15]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
From the posts when this was first brought up, it's clear that changing it into a pay site isn't just about a little money to help compensate for time and money spent. It's a business venture. If it was just money, the donation idea would have already been tried, but it doesn't appear that it's going to be.
Although we did have some effect with the Ethics Commitee idea, this one involves more. I'm guessing not just money.
Depending one the cost, I'll most likely sign up and pay. My only problem from the begining has been the people just starting and looking for research, maybe people not in the industry yet. THey certainly aren't going to pay to join to ask questions. There will be other free sites and probably ad's elsewhere that explain that this is a great site and worth the money, so there will be people signing up regardless. But there will be people that won't also. It was mentioned before that putting the word FREE up stopped interest in a different venture, looking at the amount of people here, I'd say that that didn't hold true in this case... apples and oranges.
Again I say, try the donation thing, maybe through pay-pal. You might be surprised on how much money you get, especially from people that get an idea from this site that paid off well. Some people won't ever pay, regardless of what info they get, but those are the people that probably wouldn't pay to join.
But I digress
Have a good weekend
Shaddy
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Michael,
DSSI at its current domain http://dyesub.org has not gone pay at this point.
On the issue of paying for posts, I can't speak for the other David, but I know he has in his plans to compensate people for writing featured weekly and/or monthly articles.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DATAKES
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#16] 16 Jul 2005
David,
Unless I'm missing something it has in fact gone pay. There is a "basic" membership, but it is "ad" supported and has limited search features. If you want more it costs $60.00 a year.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12] 16 Jul 2005
David,
In reviewing this thread I am thinking that you need to divulge more of your "vision"
Right now, the forum as it exists is a great "community" of friends bound by a common interest in a common industry trying to help other friends succeed. Personally, I would never charge a friend for helping them.
However, if I have read between the lines correctly, there will be a website connected with EE. Squinting at the fine print between the line, that website once it is up, will have many resources including a video training archive, (possible even "live" video seminars... and more. The "more" is what I think you need to expound upon in discussions of going "pay" so member have an inkling of what they will be getting for their hard earned dollars.
Also, if any of the members are stock traders of anykind, they know that one needs to pay for research, such as Morningstar, Standard & Poor etc.... what they are paying for is information. On EE what we would be paying for would be information, training, sources and hopefully more.
Either way I think it is important to know.
Just my two cents. Want change?
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#17] 16 Jul 2005
Chuck,
If we are talking about the same forum, they have done a horrendous job of communicating that change. I don't see anything on the site that indicates this change, nor have I ever been e-mailed a notice. It appears to be functioning the way it always has.
From: UncleSteve [#20]
16 Jul 2005
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19] 16 Jul 2005
David,
I think there is confusion between the DSSI forum and the HOSTING company, Delphi Forums.....
The fees are for Dephi membership which provides different levels of access/ads/features.
The fees are NOT paid to or used by DSSI in any form.
Cherie DOES accept paid ads to support the DSSI forum itself.
Now that it is www.dyesub.org, the fees should be a non-issue.
From: bluepaw [#21]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am too new here to be offering suggestions. So instead of offering my 2 cents worth I will give 0 cents worth. Take it for what it's worth.
I think the donation route is the wrong way to go. I would gladly pay a fee as long as it is universal and everyone pays.
I would not donate...
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#22]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
Steve,
That would explain why I am having trouble logging on.......I think......hmmmmmmmmmm
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
16 Jul 2005
To: Michael [#14] 17 Jul 2005
Well, that makes two of us who can't explain why this forum is more active than most of its kind. People who have already left probably won't be in a position to shed much light on the subject.
Forum threads are generally a brief, collective exchange of information, to benefit all, in which contributors participate voluntarily.
Have you ever benefitted from reading a thread of which you weren't a participant?
If so, let me know what dollar amount you would personally be willing to pay for that post or collection of posts. We'll consider that number, in weighing the concept of a per-post payment model :-)
DSSI remains a free forum. The pay topic, wherever it may be raised, will always be a sore point for some and less so for others. No surprise there.
The web site will have an area for articles. We'll encourage people to write articles and compensate the authors for their work.
There's a big difference between creating an informative forum post and tackling a full-blown magazine article. Magazines are looking for well-written, well-articulated, comprehensive articles, which are subject to a minimum word count as well as support materials, i.e. photos. Rodney Gold's recent "Laser ideas" post would certainly qualify.
Also, consider this:
Monthly magazine issues, quite often, center around a "theme." One issue may focus on laser engraving, the next issue may highlight sublimation, etc., etc.
Magazines also need time to rally advertisers around those themes, not to mention the actual layout and printing of the magazine.
When we hit our stride, we'll be able to rapidly post articles without concern over a particular theme, advertiser participation or printer deadlines.
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#24]
16 Jul 2005
To: UncleSteve [#20] 16 Jul 2005
UncleSteve,
Thank you for pointing out the distinction between the two forums.
I apologize for posting mis information about the DSSI forum. My Bad....
somebody spank me.......
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
16 Jul 2005
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#18] 16 Jul 2005
We have the ability to become a pay site immediately. We could do it tomorrow. The reason we've been holding off, instead of talking about what's in store, we'd rather show you.
When we make that move, admittedly, the various sections won't immediately be heavily-populated.
A full-page events calendar as well as a searchable supplier database will be a couple of the features. Videotaped "how to" procedures, and member spotlights are a couple more.
I've personally found this forum so helpful and so informative that even without the articles, videotapes, supplier database or any other proposed features, I'd be onboard with a pay forum - as is - today!
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by DGL
From: Laura (ELLEMD628) [#26]
16 Jul 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 16 Jul 2005
I've held off commenting on this subject because I do tend to be a cheapsake at times (okay, "thrifty" sounds better) and I rarely pay for any additional online resources (cable internet is expensive enough!) I was absolutely AMAZED to have found a forum like this, especially for free. As previously mentioned by others, if I were a brand new member I probably would not have paid to join, which would have been a very unfortunate mistake. (Perhaps a brief trial period should be considered if the forum goes pay.)
HOWEVER, as a new business owner (and thanks to many comments on this board) I'm learning to value time in a whole new way. Looking back at all that I have learned in the short time I've visited this board and looking forward to what you have in store for us, (VERY excited about what you've mentioned by the way) I would be more than happy to become a paying member of this site if that's what it comes to.
Do I look forward to an additional (even modest) expense? No, but I truly feel this forum has been an amazing asset to my business. For me personally it may very well be the most important resource I have access to. Never in a million years would I have been able to "meet" and converse with so many intelligent industry leaders. Heck, most of the time I'm just reading what you all say to others since I don't have a whole lot to jump in and contribute yet. I also enjoy meeting others who are in the same boat as me and just getting their feet wet.
If I hadn't had the opportunity to chat with Dee and Harvey on the forum ahead of time there's little chance, okay...honestly NO CHANCE I would have had the guts to walk into their store and introduce myself when I was in the area. Previously I always felt like other engravers would see me as a threat even if I was a newbie and multiple states away. Many of us have e-commerce sites so we all potentially have the same customers...Why in the world would a "competitor" want to give me the time of day let alone answer any and all of my questions and then some? What could I possibly offer them in return? But that's the beauty of this forum - rather than try to hold each other down we're all so open and willilng to help each other in any way we can. The wonderful result is we all benefit and grow. I don't even see that kind of camaraderie in my local business network.
Going back to how I, the cheapskate, splurged on cable internet, I guess that's how I'd put paying for the forum into perspective...now that I've experienced the sheer power and added value of it, there's no way I'm going back to dial up, no matter what the cost!
From: UncleSteve [#27]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
I am amazed at those that "wouldn't pay if this forum went to a pay format". And this is without even knowing how much it would be!!!
I doubt if there is anyone who is serious about their engraving business that hasn't or won't increase their bottom line by well over $1000 in their first year as a member here.
I would consider it an education cost just as going to a trade show and attending one of the seminars.
There is a differerence between being "cheap", "frugal" and carefully watching one's investments in their business...... education being one of the latter and possibly the most rewarding both in knowledge and $$'s.
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#28]
16 Jul 2005
To: ALL
Ladies and Germs
I'm sitting here reading in between switching out switch plates... ( a job for a hotel labeling their switch plates so the tourist know which switch is which) .... $4 and a minute a plate.....I think I could afford to pay....
But I digress.....one thing to remember is that like all business expense, membership ( forum ) dues are TAX DEDUCTIBLE!!!! So you really aren't paying for this forum at all B-)
EDITED: 16 Jul 2005 by C_BURKE
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