Full Version: Question regarding equipment options
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#1]
15 Aug 2005
To: ALL
Hello,
I have an Epilog Laser and a very nice sandblasting unit. I have been in business for only one year. I am considering adding a rotary engraver and would like to ask the group's opinion. The main reason I am thinking of adding is because I would like to offer jewelry and other gift items that are metal. I realize that some jewelry can be done with the laser and also with the sandblasting.
I have tried cermark on metals and have not been happy with the process. It doesn't always work and is messy and time consuming, not to mention expensive!
What can a rotary do or do better than what I have now?
thanks for your expertise!
Linda
EDITED: 15 Aug 2005 by LINDAG
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#1] 15 Aug 2005
Diamond drag engraving produces unique look and one not achieveabale with any other process, short of hand engraving.
When it comes to jewelry and metal gift items, it's the way to go.
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#3]
15 Aug 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#2] 15 Aug 2005
Thank you David,
Can you also give me some suggestions on how to go about selecting one? I noticed the new Xenetech Viper can do the inside and outside of a ring. I have no idea what the cost of these machines are or how to choose the one that would be best for me.
Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated!
thanks!
Linda
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#4]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#3] 15 Aug 2005
Linda,
I am not going to suggest a brand. If you can wait and get to the Las Vegas show in March you will be able to see almost every machine demonstrated and will be able to make a more informed decision. You can also check the ARA home page and see if there are any local shows you could attend. You can also call various companies and ask if they have a sales rep in your area who can demo their machine for you.
The people on this board will be willing to help in anyway they can but the best way to judge a machine is to see if it will fit your particular needs and see if the software is something you can work with.
While I said I wouldn't recommend a brand I personally would steer clear of the Signature line. It demos well but it is truly not a lot of bang for your buck.
Happy hunting and keep us informed.
Dee
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#5]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#3] 15 Aug 2005
Linda,
Your options run everywhere from a used manual pantograph and a couple sets of type, (less than $1,000) to a new state-of-the-art computerized engraving system.
From what you've said about the items you plan to engrave, verstaility sounds like the primary objective, as opposed to table size.
I haven't seen the new Xenetech GE (Gift Engraver) in action, but I'd put that machine, along with the Newing-Hall TLC 350 w/powerbase and the Gravograph (formerly New Hermes) IS400 Volume under serious consideration. ($17K-$20k+)
All have cylindrical engraving capability, which will allow you to enter areas many engraving shops can't.
EDITED: 15 Aug 2005 by DGL
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#6]
15 Aug 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#5] 15 Aug 2005
Thank you Dee and David,
you have both given me very helpful information!
regards, Linda
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#7]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#6] 15 Aug 2005
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#8]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#7] 15 Aug 2005
Linda,
I have found that most computerized mechanical engraving machines run best with their own proprietary software. There are some workarounds for Corel Draw with some of the machines, but I would steer away from that option myself.
New Hermes/Gravograph works best with Gravostyle.
http://www.gravograph.com/usa/Engraving%20Machines/Engraving_Software.php
Xenetech works best with their Graphics Workstation software.
http://www.xenetech.com
Newing-Hall recommends EngraveLab.
http://www.newing-hall.com/software.html
Vision uses Vision-PRO software.
http://www.visionengravers.com/html/software.html
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#9]
15 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#7] 16 Aug 2005
Linda,
David Takes said it diplomatically; but I'll emphasis that as fantastic as Corel is for so many purposes, it *stinks* in layout production in comparison to software designed "from the ground up" for engraving.
While Xenetech and a few others correctly advertise that they will run direct from Corel, about the only time you'll ever see it is when we demonstrate that capability (and then, the salesman in us very carefully chose our sample to be engraved). Output from Corel is not optimized for an engraver and in certain cases would take 2 to 10 times the production time of the "native" engraving software (David T.: note that I stay away from the "proprietary" word).
Create your graphic in Corel but then be sure the engraver you select will allow you to copy/paste from Corel.
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#10]
16 Aug 2005
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#9] 16 Aug 2005
Sorry to be so unknowledgeable about these things, but can rotary engravers do much in the way of artwork?
Are they limited to clip art and if so, are all of the previously mentioned rotary engraving software applications equal in this area?
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#11]
16 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#10] 16 Aug 2005
While some software may work from clip-art, I can speak about Gravostyle98 only. I have never tried to import clip-art directly into this program because I have thousands of logos that I already converted to PLT for my earlier engraving systems. It may do it, or it may not have those import filters.
What I do is import the clip art into Corel and export as PLT. Engraving software likes PLT. It is a point to point line format in its simplest format. Absolutely perfect format for engraving.
I have converted many AI and EPS files to PLT in Corel. Many are perfect, some need a lot of work. Some work well with the 'Advanced tab on the exporter set to remove hidden lines, some get messed up by that and need to be hand broken up and reattached.
From: logojohn [#12]
16 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#7] 16 Aug 2005
It will also run the Epilog laser with a several hundred dollar charge.
I use Xenetech software to run our Epilog and hope to get a Xenetech laser soon. It used to work with Epilog for free when you bought a rotary because Xenetech didn't have a laser. Now they do so they charge extra for new buyers since they want to sell you their laser to.
People say all lasers are the same but to me they aren't for that major reason.
The xenetech lasers have a connection to the xenetech software without using a printer driver. You can even send the jobs to a certain folder and call them up as needed from the laser.
There are also many settings you can control and they are saved with each job for easy repeat orders.
If all you have is somebodys digitized vector logo for the rotary you can add a slight pen width to it and laser it right from Xenetech with no alteration. The width will widen the hatch fill lines so it will laser as a solid logo similary to engraving with a wider rotating cutter.
The xenetech software was made for creating award layouts and so many of the things you have to tweak in corel are already setup.
It also has a printer drive for use with corel.
From: logojohn [#13]
16 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#10] 16 Aug 2005
It is then easy to copy and paste the line art into xenetech and add a hatch fill there.
If you add space and alter the hatch angles you can mimick a greyscale or multicolor logo. If you aren't pressed for time you can also add a bunch of dots in corel first.
Here's a partial example. I couldn't get the detail of the whole thing under the 50 k limit.
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#14]
16 Aug 2005
To: ALL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
16 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#14] 16 Aug 2005
Linda,
We're happy to help. Not only will rotary engraving equipment do all you currently need, the equipment is capable of applications you haven't even thought of. :-)
In general, people don't really maximize the true potential of their equipment. I think that statement holds true for the equipment used in almost any process.
EDITED: 16 Aug 2005 by DGL
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#16]
16 Aug 2005
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#10] 17 Aug 2005
Linda,
I have only a little to add to the comments of Harvey and logojohn.
And that is, we might not have made it clear that mechanical engravers can typically engrave *only* that which you see in the CorelDRAW View>Wireframe mode. In addition, the mechanical engravers will engrave *everything* in the View>Wireframe mode; i.e., lines that are hidden in View>Enhanced mode will engrave on mechanical machines (unless you use Harvey's "remove hidden lines" trick).
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#17]
16 Aug 2005
To: ALL
Engravelab/signlab will run most engravers and cnc routers and is the perfect back end for these machines (albeit I dont think its a great package for design).
Depending on the rotary engravers capabilites , it is VERY potent as it allows for some very serious machining strategies when generating tool paths. We run 3 Isels , a tekcel and a roland Pnc 2300 engraver off this and can do just about anything. We use Acad and Corel and import into signlab/engravelab/profilelab (all more or less the same package) and can do stuff like fills of various types , hogging , quasi 3d work, multipass and muiltidepth engraving etc - even with our mickey mouse Roland we can do stuff that the big Cnc mills can!!! we have no problem at all in terms of using Corel with any of our machines and this is a huge + as we use corel for digital printing , vinyl cutting , lasering etc and can use one file across all platforms. Decent software is as important as the machine itself and the design side is a very small part of it , how it interacts with the machines controller is far more vital. I would not buy a machine that has a program that cannot import others output or relies on prorietory fonts or formats etc.
I would not buy a small gift type rotary engraver if you really want to maximise what you do , I would look for a machine that can also do duty as a router of sorts as well as this can elevate you into being able to do some really serious work and can take you into very profitable areas.
Cutting metals and substrates that cant be laser cut is one of the most potent applications for a machine like this.
Buy a a machine that can extrapolate in all 3 axes and has a decently powered spindle motor and can do decent areas. If you combine the laser and a cnc engravers output , the applications are endless!!!
For example you could machine a black anodised aluminium instrument panel and then load it into the laser to be engraved in FAR more detail than a rotary can , or use spectrum light , engraved and die cut on the laser and then applied to brass die cut shape done on the cnc for a key fob, badge etc. You cant cut thick woods with a laser, but can easily do so with a 1/2 decent engraver and then load it into the laser for further processing. The rigidity of the machine is a huge factor in how well it engraves , get a machine that uses closed loop servo motors and not stepper motors. make sure whatever you get has VERY good Z axis clearances so you can fit bulkier items and their holding jigs and vices in them , best is a spindle motor that has a bottom loading collet as then you arent really limited to engraving bits. If you do intend to do more than mere diamond engraving , you have to get a cutter grinder - no matter how good a machine is in terms of its capabilites , without the correct bit , you might as well have a chisel.
I suppose what you get depends on what you want to do , I looked at machines like the Gravograph gift and ISO volume and wasnt that impressed in terms of price vs capabilities and they were pretty expensive (especially if you included all the accessories) unless one was doing big runs of stuff. I was pretty impressed with their ease of setup however for somone who does specialise in stuff like promotional gift marking and so on.
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#18]
17 Aug 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#17] 17 Aug 2005
Rodney,
My head is spinning. There is just so much to learn about the various pieces of equipment. I want to be versatile, that is definitely my goal. Just how versatile however I don't know. Right now I am doing mostly gift items and awards. I would like to be able to create new things too. I will definitely continue to research the equipment before making a purchase.
thank you for pointing out some important things to think about and look for in new equipment.
From: JimK (JUSTTHE4OFUS) [#19]
26 Jan 2006
To: Linda (LINDAG) [#18] 26 Jan 2006
Linda,
I know its been some time ago for this thread but I am now in the spot you were when you started it. I had to look because you were describing my situation exactly. Can I ask what you finally decided on the rotary and what did you get? Are you happy with the decision? My head is now spinning! Thanks for the help!
Jim
From: Linda (LINDAG) [#20]
26 Jan 2006
To: JimK (JUSTTHE4OFUS) [#19] 27 Jan 2006
Jim,
I still have not purchased a rotary engraver as yet. I did go and look at some used equipment and spoke with a rep about a new Xenetech GE. The older equipment couldn't really do what I want, that is curved items and glasses etc. The Xenetech GE can do rings, inside and out as well as mugs, glasses, vases etc. Of course I can do the glasses, mugs, vases with the laser and sandblasting equipment. I could lease the equipment for $500 month, which is another option. (sales price is 20k)
After thinking long and hard about it (and I want the equipment really badly), I realized that it is the technicial work I love. I don't really NEED a rotary engraver, just want one. I really need to focus on the business side of my business for now. Marketing, selling and growing the business with what I have already.
I did realize however after re-reading these posts, that I had one question that really didn't get answered. (probably because I didn't really ask it) Can rotary equipment do photographs?
I will purchase a rotary engraver at some point... keep me posted on what you decide to do.
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