Full Version: Tropar
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1]
22 Aug 2005
To: ALL
So has anyone else noticed a sharp decline in Tropars ability to get orders or special requests correct??
This year I've run into quite a few situations where I've asked them to hold a package until a certain date before shipping so it didn't come in while I was out of town, and they just ship on the regular schedule, which messes everything up on my end.
As some may remember from a previous posting of mine, they shipped me damaged merchandise (damaged before shipping), and then I had to pay for the second shipment also. This is a month later, I'm still waiting for my refund from the returned product, and I call about it and find out they gave me a credit. NJ tried to blame Texas, Texas tried to blame NJ. Meanwhile, I'm still out the money for the double shipment! My letter to them definitely said refund, not credit.
I've been buying from Tropar for over 15 years, and up to this year they've been doing a pretty good job, but something has definitely changed. They just don't seem to be able to follow directions anymore. I did mention this problem to them at Las Vegas, but they pretty much laughed it off, like I was joking. I told them I was serious, but they still didn't seem to get it that this was inconveniencing me and I wasn't happy about all the mistakes.
I'm on the hunt for a replacement supplier at this point, but was wondering if anyone had some insider information about what has changed. If so, please share.
Cindy M
From: Zonas [#2]
22 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 23 Aug 2005
My complaint with Tropar is that they bid the same contracts I bid and bidat the same price they would sell to us. I can't win the bids since I have to mark the items up. I end up with the engraving part of the bid, but I'd rather have the 'full' job not just the lower profit end. Doesn't seem fair that our suppliers are selling to our customers at the same price we have to pay.
Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#3]
23 Aug 2005
To: Zonas [#2] 23 Aug 2005
Oh, that is a big pet peeve with me - suppliers selling to our clients directly or bidding on the same jobs that we are bidding on. I simply do not agree that suppliers should be in our arena any more than we would be welcome in theirs.
I am starting to reorganize my supplier list and am checking very carefully into my chosen supplier "credentials". I'm asking directly about their resale policies. I want to use suppliers who require business licenses before someone can buy from them. And I'm asking what their policy is about selling to the general public. You can tell from their answer whether they sell or not, even if they try to dodge the question.
Thank you for your posting. What you've told me here is the clincher about whether or not I replace Tropar as one of my suppliers. I asked if they sell to the general public and they told me no emphatically. I even use the link to their website on my website based on that information. Now I find out they are bidding against a retailer?? That is just not right. So thanks for helping me out.
There are always replacement companies to find for almost everything. Only once or twice have I been stuck without finding a comparable product from a different supplier.
I consider this matter of professional ethics. Sorry I went off like this.
Back to work.
Cindy
From: UncleSteve [#4]
23 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#3] 24 Aug 2005
Us: Hello, Supplier, I saw an item in your catalog and wanted to know if you give quantity discounts to engravers.
Them: Well, we never used to but we are getting so many requests that we have set up a "wholesale" division to the trade.
Us: What does the pricing look like?
Them: We offer quantity discounts that go beyond our retail discounts. How many of what would you like to order?
Yes, many suppliers started out as sellers to end users and added the "wholesale" as a word, but not necessarily a greater discount.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5]
24 Aug 2005
To: UncleSteve [#4] 25 Aug 2005
I'm not sure I know how my suppliers started out, or what their intentions were or are now, but one thing I do expect when buying from a "wholesale" supplier is that their pricing to me, who has a legitimate retail location and a business license, will be less than joe from the boy scouts looking to save some money on his awards. I expect to have them show me the same loyalty that they expect from me.
Cindy
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6]
24 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#5] 24 Aug 2005
Maybe they are. I am in no way commenting on your trustworthiness. It just seems that many times those that can't be trusted and those that don't trust are the same.
.
EDITED: 24 Aug 2005 by KDEVORY
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#7]
24 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6] 24 Aug 2005
Ken - I could take offense at your statement if I took it the way it reads and read more into it than is possibly there. But I won't because I get your meaning, I think.
I treat my suppliers the way I would want to be treated. I order by fax so there are few mess ups. I give them the most time I can to process and send out my orders. I show loyalty to them by ordering as much as I can from them during the year instead of hopping from supplier to supplier based only on price. I respect my suppliers. I expect nothing more and nothing less back.
Cindy
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#8]
24 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#7] 25 Aug 2005
I'm glad you didn't take offense. (I'm not sure how to read it that way.)
For you the opposite would apply: Those who are trusting and those who are trustworthy, tend to be the same.
People treat others how they expect to be treated.
Unfortunately not everyone has the high standards you do.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#9]
25 Aug 2005
To: UncleSteve [#4] 25 Aug 2005
We have found ourselves in exactly the same position you are describing Steve. We started out as Retail...and had been asked to wholesale so often that we discounted what we could, but still sell retail. The more sales in general, the more purchasing power you have because of volume with certain materials....in our case...metal. So as I contemplate the sales of our metal, I question if it crosses the line because we are basicly competing with our new customers...... On the flip side, I feel like the product is better than many of the other materials that are available, and think that it is something that's worth offering. I haven't pushed it yet, but have strongly contemplated doing such a thing.
We have also had other thoughts of setting up a more aggressive wholesaling program on our main product line, but had worries of people using our artwork and manufacturing the same product for themselves (it would have been easier several years ago when that product was mainly screen printed). Again, volume has it's advantages, but many of the people that do the same type of work that we do undervalue that product, and it makes it difficult for us to offer that product at a high enough discount to pick those customers up as a wholesaling option.
Long story short, I can see both sides of the issue.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#10]
25 Aug 2005
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#9] 25 Aug 2005
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#11]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#8] 25 Aug 2005
Ken,
In the for what's it worth department, I too looked at your post as a possible slam.
Dave
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12]
25 Aug 2005
To: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#11] 25 Aug 2005
Dave,
I guess I need to be a lot more careful. Unfortunately I still don't see how to read it that way, which makes it more difficult to avoid in the future.
There have been times my wife has take offense at things I've said; yet she will never explain why/how; as I said, that makes it harder to avoid repeating in the future.
I am glad that people who have read into it a "possible slam" are not automatically assuming that was the intent. That's one of the nice things about this group.
EDITED: 25 Aug 2005 by KDEVORY
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#13]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12] 25 Aug 2005
Ken,
You stated:
"It just seems that many times those that can't be trusted and those that don't trust are the same."
That clearly implies that the person who started this thread is at least likely not to be trusted. There are very few other ways to read that sentence. I accept that it was not your intent, but the written word is always subject to interpretation and the most likely way to read yours is as a negative statement.
Take it from one who knows - you must take care in what you write and how you construct it.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12] 25 Aug 2005
I'm not sure there can be two sides of this story. Either you are a wholesaler or a retailer - choose your position. If you are a retailer who sells some parts wholesale to other people who will mark them up to sell retail also, I would expect you to give those wholesaler buyers a lower price than you would sell the product or part for in your store. What they price it at is not your concern from that time on. If you find that they are putting together the same product and selling it at a lower price that causes problems for you in your marketplace, stop selling the part wholesale.
I guess my position on this is that I don't feel I should have to compete with my own supplier for the same client base, because there isn't a way for me to win in that arena. If a supplier wants my business, they will be a supplier that checks that their client base is actually in business to resell their product or parts by requiring proof when setting up an account (resale #, business license etc), and they won't be selling to the same clients who walk in to my showroom. This might seem harsh to some, but its just how I feel about this topic. In my eyes, this is not the same as having a competitor down the street. I don't mind fair competition.
Just my hobby horse.
Cindy M
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#15]
25 Aug 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#13] 25 Aug 2005
Now I get it. The comment taken by itself can be interpreted that way. I was offering it up as a potential explanation of the other party's behavior in the quote:
"I expect to have them show me the same loyalty that they expect from me."
It assumes that the vendor expects loyalty from its customers. This may or may not be the case. The original post implied that the vendor takes the approach of "everyone looks out for their own best interest."
I wanted to point out that while her value system also takes into account the well being of others, the vendor's value system may be "every man for themselves".
From my perspective it's the vendor who has the biggest case for getting annoyed. And I must add here that I have no first hand experience with the vendor; I was only commenting on what I interpreted as a false assumption.
****
I believe that capitalism started as every entity (person/company) only looking out for their own best interest. But value systems have been evolving. (Different entities are progressing at different rates.) Many now consider their impact on others and the environment. At first it might be for perceived self advantage, latter it becomes genuine concern/interest. There is a tendency to assume others are operating from the same level. ( Win-Loose => Win-Win => Win-Win-Win )
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#16]
25 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14] 26 Aug 2005
Cindy we do both retail and wholesale and even on the retail side we are often put into positions we dont like to be in , sometimes even bidding agianst ourselves.
In terms of wholesale components , we ONLY sell wholesale in case lots , to bona fide Trophy dealers/retailers/engravers and we NEVER supply wholesale within 100 miles of ourselves. this is the most effective strategy to stop us competing with our wholesale customers as its unlikely we will get enquiries for awards from distances above that and if we do , we merely refer them to our retialer in that area.
We also started out as a retailer , eventually importing our own components and getting a demand from other retailer for them.
I NEVER supply the folk who come in and tell us "Oh Ive made this wooden trophy at home now I need trim for it" we actually DECLINE to sell to them as in my mind , they are competing with me and my wholesale client base , most trophy places here wont supply due to this and eventually they cant really make up a classy award and end up buying something or giving a kludged thing. I also dont supply businesses like key cutting shops that carry a few awards and place orders like 2 athletes one soccer player and a medal insert at anything other than full retail. Where we have real problems is in our mnfgring , cos we work for promo agents , advertising houses , design studios and end user clients. We have often got a brief for quotation for the same thing from all of them at the same time and its a real delicate situation - what do you do if all of them ARE your clients? We just quote everyone the same price and advise all that we have done so and they are not the only ones out there. (this is not really a trophy issue , it involves other stuff I make mostly - like Point of sale displays)
There is also a legacy issue with Small wholesale/retail in that often some of the folk one started off supplying "wholesale" to - IE giving big bulk discounts to , like the big soccer clubs who do buty case lots are still loyal clients and have been dealing with us for years , technically they are not retailers , but to have to tell them that after 10 years of loyal support you are not going to supply them anymore or substantially raise their prices is kinda a slap in their faces. We are however honest and upfront with the retialers we supply that might serve them , telling them that we DO supply XYZ in their area and it is a legacy thing.
We find a LOT of the trophy places here are extremely greedy too , like marking up 500% on thier component cost and this leads to enquiries from customers of theirs direcly to us. We just send the enquirers a list of the awards shops that stock our product. This might sound a little unethical , but it's not as the logic is that due to the gouging prices , that customer will most likely look for an alternative product from an alternative supplier and we will ultimatley lose out on a sale
We feel retailers that add margins like this have themselves to blame for losing the sale , not us - we dont compete directly against them but offer their client an alternative to being ripped off.
A lot of our wholesale suppliers do supply directly to end users and we cannot blame them for it as the levels of some of the end user enquiries are huge , often eclipsing the level of sales to bona fide retialers by orders of magnitude - depends a lot on the product and what deals you have tied up with your suppliers. If we have sole distributuion rights for an area , we enforce it , if we have no agreement , we live with it. For example , albeit we are wholesale buyers of acrylic , if a construction co comes along and asks the manufacturer to supply the acrylic for some vast building project we can't expect them not to quote .
A lot of ppl that approach us for wholesale are less than honest , often using fictitious Co names or business names to get a cheaper price. The ppl we buy our components from often send us enquiries they get from so called bona fide trophy places - on letterheads etc and these places dont exist and are merely end users looking for the cheapest price. At least they have the deceny to send us these requests , but then we do have distribution rights deals in place.
As in any industry , you get good and bad suppliers , some will actively poach your client , but this is a real short term view , generally the trophy industry is a small closed community and bad info is desseminated real quick throughout it - with internet forums etc - it's even quicker. Thus co's that do have unethical policys soon suffer the consequences.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#17]
26 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14] 26 Aug 2005
Hi Cindy,
What you may be at risk of doing by looking at the situation in such black and white terms is limiting the availibility of new products that tend to get developed by creative people. The ones that develop them for their markets, and then see the opportunity to sell wholesale.
Many of the products that you see were developed by a person just like you....Someone that had an idea that was really quite good. The idea started out as a product that they could sell for themselves.....and then it kind of took off and made sense to offer it to others because others were requesting it as a blank or re-sale item. The kenendrum is when you take a fairly priced retail item to the wholesale level....There isn't always enough margin to make it worth while to both parties. The logical direction to go would be to raise the retail price...Unfortunately that is not always an option.
I feel that you are suggesting that there is no grey area, when there honestly is.
If offering a product creates an unfair competition there are three options. Do nothing and hope you don't upset enough people, change the pricing structure to make it fair for both sides, or stop offering the product as a wholesale item.
I'm afraid that there would be some that would just keep their newly developed items to themselves then, or just sell as retail, and allow you to try to figure out how to make a profit with the product if you were willing to pay full price.
Brian G.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#18]
26 Aug 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#16] 26 Aug 2005
Rodney - I like what you said in your posting, and I think you have done as best you can serving both retail & wholesale. You are right - some companies have evolved from one to the other. You seem to be handling it the way I would want a supplier of mine to - with conscience. Some of the things you mention (referring to shops who carry your product, selling outside of your area so you don't compete against yourself etc) are what I would do if I was in your shoes. It certainly sounds like you are playing the game as fairly as you can.
What you describe is really all I'm asking from my suppliers.
I, too, will decline the sale of individual parts to walk in award builder wannabes. When asked to do so I tell them that I am a retailer, not a wholesaler. Or I might tell them that I need their business license to sell parts to them. I've never had anyone offer to provide one.
Cindy M
From: logojohn [#19]
27 Aug 2005
To: ALL
We sell tons of Tropar stuff and I have never experienced them selling to the end user or bidding against us. Maybe we are just lucky.
We usually need the stuff right away so havent had to request special ship dates. We occassionally get damaged or the wrong item but they usually just issue a ups call tag and send a replacement item right away. Maybe they only do that if you have a billing account set up.
How would the customer even find them? Their airflyte.com site tells people
"We invite you to browse our web site and contact your dealer to place an order."
Is there another web site of theirs?
Many retailers link to that site since it is easier than adding a lot of items to their own site.
We sell our products and engraving wholesale to other resellers or engrave products they order directly. These are normally places that sell products but don't do engraving such as sign shops, frame shops, sellers of silver gifts, asi dealers or manufacture custom products. We require a copy of the resale sales tax id number certificate that a real business would have so we don't have to charge them sales tax. State auditors have showed up before to check for the paperwork.
EDITED: 27 Aug 2005 by LOGOJOHN
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#20]
27 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 29 Aug 2005
Cindy & Zonas,
I do not work for Tropar. I never have. I do not own stock in Tropar (I am almost sure it is owned 100% by the Ilaria family).
I have no reason to defend Tropar except that my experience tells me something is not right in this thread.
I travel eight states and visit lots of awards & engraving shops. While I hear some horror stories, I typically hear mostly positive remarks about them. Hard to actually make comparisons to most other suppliers since they continue to successfully travel down the pre assembled path instead of components.
My wife recently sold her retail business (which she owned for over 25 years) and Tropar was at least one of her favorite, most dependable suppliers (she loved to charge dearly let someone else do the assembly). On numerous occasions, I've heard her say that Tropar was the only company that often referred business to her; that is, when they were asked to sell wholesale by someone in my wife's area, they would refer the lead to several local retail shops.
I could be wrong, but I do not believe Tropar *ever* bids retail. I'd be very interested in details that Zonas or anyone else might have. I recently had Peter E. Ilaria confirm that under no circumstances does Tropar sell direct. Most are probably aware that they sell to promotional products dealers the same as they do trophy shops.
While I'm busy defending, for no good reason, I might also point out that at least most of the time I hear about manufacturers selling direct, there is more to the story than that on the surface.
A couple of instances:
1. Several in West Texas told me that a Texas manufacturer (who I won't name) had taken a huge city wide contract for youth sports awards. Upon checking, it was only partly true. The city had approached the manufacturer and he said he would only go through retailers and gave them a list of retailers in the city. The City was convinced (probably correctly) that no retailer could handle their order they way they wanted to handle it and worked out a compromise with the retailer to send their buyer to the manufacturer and send their trucks to pick up the order, but the retailer set the prices, invoiced the order, collected and paid the manufacturer. A pretty good deal for all concerned. The City, for whatever reason, continued to tell anyone who asked that they were dealing direct with "brand X" manufacturer which gave him a black eye that I personally feel he doesn't deserve.
2. A New Oleans dealer has a very similar arrangement with a Chicago manufactuer who handles the [unnamed world renown sports classic]. That dealer is a regular contributor to this forum and I suspect he'll correct me if I didn't properly state the situation.
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