Full Version: Tropar
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#11]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#8] 25 Aug 2005
Ken,
In the for what's it worth department, I too looked at your post as a possible slam.
Dave
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12]
25 Aug 2005
To: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#11] 25 Aug 2005
Dave,
I guess I need to be a lot more careful. Unfortunately I still don't see how to read it that way, which makes it more difficult to avoid in the future.
There have been times my wife has take offense at things I've said; yet she will never explain why/how; as I said, that makes it harder to avoid repeating in the future.
I am glad that people who have read into it a "possible slam" are not automatically assuming that was the intent. That's one of the nice things about this group.
EDITED: 25 Aug 2005 by KDEVORY
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#13]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12] 25 Aug 2005
Ken,
You stated:
"It just seems that many times those that can't be trusted and those that don't trust are the same."
That clearly implies that the person who started this thread is at least likely not to be trusted. There are very few other ways to read that sentence. I accept that it was not your intent, but the written word is always subject to interpretation and the most likely way to read yours is as a negative statement.
Take it from one who knows - you must take care in what you write and how you construct it.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14]
25 Aug 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#12] 25 Aug 2005
I'm not sure there can be two sides of this story. Either you are a wholesaler or a retailer - choose your position. If you are a retailer who sells some parts wholesale to other people who will mark them up to sell retail also, I would expect you to give those wholesaler buyers a lower price than you would sell the product or part for in your store. What they price it at is not your concern from that time on. If you find that they are putting together the same product and selling it at a lower price that causes problems for you in your marketplace, stop selling the part wholesale.
I guess my position on this is that I don't feel I should have to compete with my own supplier for the same client base, because there isn't a way for me to win in that arena. If a supplier wants my business, they will be a supplier that checks that their client base is actually in business to resell their product or parts by requiring proof when setting up an account (resale #, business license etc), and they won't be selling to the same clients who walk in to my showroom. This might seem harsh to some, but its just how I feel about this topic. In my eyes, this is not the same as having a competitor down the street. I don't mind fair competition.
Just my hobby horse.
Cindy M
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#15]
25 Aug 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#13] 25 Aug 2005
Now I get it. The comment taken by itself can be interpreted that way. I was offering it up as a potential explanation of the other party's behavior in the quote:
"I expect to have them show me the same loyalty that they expect from me."
It assumes that the vendor expects loyalty from its customers. This may or may not be the case. The original post implied that the vendor takes the approach of "everyone looks out for their own best interest."
I wanted to point out that while her value system also takes into account the well being of others, the vendor's value system may be "every man for themselves".
From my perspective it's the vendor who has the biggest case for getting annoyed. And I must add here that I have no first hand experience with the vendor; I was only commenting on what I interpreted as a false assumption.
****
I believe that capitalism started as every entity (person/company) only looking out for their own best interest. But value systems have been evolving. (Different entities are progressing at different rates.) Many now consider their impact on others and the environment. At first it might be for perceived self advantage, latter it becomes genuine concern/interest. There is a tendency to assume others are operating from the same level. ( Win-Loose => Win-Win => Win-Win-Win )
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#16]
25 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14] 26 Aug 2005
Cindy we do both retail and wholesale and even on the retail side we are often put into positions we dont like to be in , sometimes even bidding agianst ourselves.
In terms of wholesale components , we ONLY sell wholesale in case lots , to bona fide Trophy dealers/retailers/engravers and we NEVER supply wholesale within 100 miles of ourselves. this is the most effective strategy to stop us competing with our wholesale customers as its unlikely we will get enquiries for awards from distances above that and if we do , we merely refer them to our retialer in that area.
We also started out as a retailer , eventually importing our own components and getting a demand from other retailer for them.
I NEVER supply the folk who come in and tell us "Oh Ive made this wooden trophy at home now I need trim for it" we actually DECLINE to sell to them as in my mind , they are competing with me and my wholesale client base , most trophy places here wont supply due to this and eventually they cant really make up a classy award and end up buying something or giving a kludged thing. I also dont supply businesses like key cutting shops that carry a few awards and place orders like 2 athletes one soccer player and a medal insert at anything other than full retail. Where we have real problems is in our mnfgring , cos we work for promo agents , advertising houses , design studios and end user clients. We have often got a brief for quotation for the same thing from all of them at the same time and its a real delicate situation - what do you do if all of them ARE your clients? We just quote everyone the same price and advise all that we have done so and they are not the only ones out there. (this is not really a trophy issue , it involves other stuff I make mostly - like Point of sale displays)
There is also a legacy issue with Small wholesale/retail in that often some of the folk one started off supplying "wholesale" to - IE giving big bulk discounts to , like the big soccer clubs who do buty case lots are still loyal clients and have been dealing with us for years , technically they are not retailers , but to have to tell them that after 10 years of loyal support you are not going to supply them anymore or substantially raise their prices is kinda a slap in their faces. We are however honest and upfront with the retialers we supply that might serve them , telling them that we DO supply XYZ in their area and it is a legacy thing.
We find a LOT of the trophy places here are extremely greedy too , like marking up 500% on thier component cost and this leads to enquiries from customers of theirs direcly to us. We just send the enquirers a list of the awards shops that stock our product. This might sound a little unethical , but it's not as the logic is that due to the gouging prices , that customer will most likely look for an alternative product from an alternative supplier and we will ultimatley lose out on a sale
We feel retailers that add margins like this have themselves to blame for losing the sale , not us - we dont compete directly against them but offer their client an alternative to being ripped off.
A lot of our wholesale suppliers do supply directly to end users and we cannot blame them for it as the levels of some of the end user enquiries are huge , often eclipsing the level of sales to bona fide retialers by orders of magnitude - depends a lot on the product and what deals you have tied up with your suppliers. If we have sole distributuion rights for an area , we enforce it , if we have no agreement , we live with it. For example , albeit we are wholesale buyers of acrylic , if a construction co comes along and asks the manufacturer to supply the acrylic for some vast building project we can't expect them not to quote .
A lot of ppl that approach us for wholesale are less than honest , often using fictitious Co names or business names to get a cheaper price. The ppl we buy our components from often send us enquiries they get from so called bona fide trophy places - on letterheads etc and these places dont exist and are merely end users looking for the cheapest price. At least they have the deceny to send us these requests , but then we do have distribution rights deals in place.
As in any industry , you get good and bad suppliers , some will actively poach your client , but this is a real short term view , generally the trophy industry is a small closed community and bad info is desseminated real quick throughout it - with internet forums etc - it's even quicker. Thus co's that do have unethical policys soon suffer the consequences.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#17]
26 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#14] 26 Aug 2005
Hi Cindy,
What you may be at risk of doing by looking at the situation in such black and white terms is limiting the availibility of new products that tend to get developed by creative people. The ones that develop them for their markets, and then see the opportunity to sell wholesale.
Many of the products that you see were developed by a person just like you....Someone that had an idea that was really quite good. The idea started out as a product that they could sell for themselves.....and then it kind of took off and made sense to offer it to others because others were requesting it as a blank or re-sale item. The kenendrum is when you take a fairly priced retail item to the wholesale level....There isn't always enough margin to make it worth while to both parties. The logical direction to go would be to raise the retail price...Unfortunately that is not always an option.
I feel that you are suggesting that there is no grey area, when there honestly is.
If offering a product creates an unfair competition there are three options. Do nothing and hope you don't upset enough people, change the pricing structure to make it fair for both sides, or stop offering the product as a wholesale item.
I'm afraid that there would be some that would just keep their newly developed items to themselves then, or just sell as retail, and allow you to try to figure out how to make a profit with the product if you were willing to pay full price.
Brian G.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#18]
26 Aug 2005
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#16] 26 Aug 2005
Rodney - I like what you said in your posting, and I think you have done as best you can serving both retail & wholesale. You are right - some companies have evolved from one to the other. You seem to be handling it the way I would want a supplier of mine to - with conscience. Some of the things you mention (referring to shops who carry your product, selling outside of your area so you don't compete against yourself etc) are what I would do if I was in your shoes. It certainly sounds like you are playing the game as fairly as you can.
What you describe is really all I'm asking from my suppliers.
I, too, will decline the sale of individual parts to walk in award builder wannabes. When asked to do so I tell them that I am a retailer, not a wholesaler. Or I might tell them that I need their business license to sell parts to them. I've never had anyone offer to provide one.
Cindy M
From: logojohn [#19]
27 Aug 2005
To: ALL
We sell tons of Tropar stuff and I have never experienced them selling to the end user or bidding against us. Maybe we are just lucky.
We usually need the stuff right away so havent had to request special ship dates. We occassionally get damaged or the wrong item but they usually just issue a ups call tag and send a replacement item right away. Maybe they only do that if you have a billing account set up.
How would the customer even find them? Their airflyte.com site tells people
"We invite you to browse our web site and contact your dealer to place an order."
Is there another web site of theirs?
Many retailers link to that site since it is easier than adding a lot of items to their own site.
We sell our products and engraving wholesale to other resellers or engrave products they order directly. These are normally places that sell products but don't do engraving such as sign shops, frame shops, sellers of silver gifts, asi dealers or manufacture custom products. We require a copy of the resale sales tax id number certificate that a real business would have so we don't have to charge them sales tax. State auditors have showed up before to check for the paperwork.
EDITED: 27 Aug 2005 by LOGOJOHN
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#20]
27 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#1] 29 Aug 2005
Cindy & Zonas,
I do not work for Tropar. I never have. I do not own stock in Tropar (I am almost sure it is owned 100% by the Ilaria family).
I have no reason to defend Tropar except that my experience tells me something is not right in this thread.
I travel eight states and visit lots of awards & engraving shops. While I hear some horror stories, I typically hear mostly positive remarks about them. Hard to actually make comparisons to most other suppliers since they continue to successfully travel down the pre assembled path instead of components.
My wife recently sold her retail business (which she owned for over 25 years) and Tropar was at least one of her favorite, most dependable suppliers (she loved to charge dearly let someone else do the assembly). On numerous occasions, I've heard her say that Tropar was the only company that often referred business to her; that is, when they were asked to sell wholesale by someone in my wife's area, they would refer the lead to several local retail shops.
I could be wrong, but I do not believe Tropar *ever* bids retail. I'd be very interested in details that Zonas or anyone else might have. I recently had Peter E. Ilaria confirm that under no circumstances does Tropar sell direct. Most are probably aware that they sell to promotional products dealers the same as they do trophy shops.
While I'm busy defending, for no good reason, I might also point out that at least most of the time I hear about manufacturers selling direct, there is more to the story than that on the surface.
A couple of instances:
1. Several in West Texas told me that a Texas manufacturer (who I won't name) had taken a huge city wide contract for youth sports awards. Upon checking, it was only partly true. The city had approached the manufacturer and he said he would only go through retailers and gave them a list of retailers in the city. The City was convinced (probably correctly) that no retailer could handle their order they way they wanted to handle it and worked out a compromise with the retailer to send their buyer to the manufacturer and send their trucks to pick up the order, but the retailer set the prices, invoiced the order, collected and paid the manufacturer. A pretty good deal for all concerned. The City, for whatever reason, continued to tell anyone who asked that they were dealing direct with "brand X" manufacturer which gave him a black eye that I personally feel he doesn't deserve.
2. A New Oleans dealer has a very similar arrangement with a Chicago manufactuer who handles the [unnamed world renown sports classic]. That dealer is a regular contributor to this forum and I suspect he'll correct me if I didn't properly state the situation.
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#21]
27 Aug 2005
To: Zonas [#2] 28 Aug 2005
I have dealt with Tropar since the mid 1970's and I have never known them to intentionally sell direct to the end user. As a matter of fact there have been many instances that I am aware of where they refused to do so. In the early 1980's when I started Awardmasters, I even had a hard time getting them to sell to me because I did not have a retail storefront. That was after I had purchased from them for about 7 years with the previous company I owned.
They have very strict company policies and generally are very rigid in standing by them, sometimes to their detriment. It is difficult to get them to bend if it violates one of their rules.
Please elaborate more on the problems you have had bidding against them. Did they bid the job or did another retailer get the hardware part and you got the engraving?
From: Zonas [#22]
28 Aug 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#21] 28 Aug 2005
I don't want to give to 'exact' of names since this is the internet, but my customer - a large company, puts bids out for different items each year. As I stated earlier - I did not see the name of the winner on the bid, but I did get to see the exact price this company paid per item. It was the exact price we pay from Tropar (to the cent). I receive the cases (after they have been delivered to the company) and the UPS stickers are still on them. Since the bids have to include shipping charges. I asked Tropar if there was any additional discounts (this bid was for 500 - $50.00 items) - and was very strongly told no. Now if there is somebody (besides Tropar) out there selling these items at cost, and paying Tropar to drop ship them, then I stand correted, but I'd like to talk to them about some land for sell ;)
Zona
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#23]
28 Aug 2005
To: Zonas [#22] 28 Aug 2005
It does sound like the purchase was probably made directly from Tropar. However, I would still think that if Tropar did sell the items direct that they believed that they were selling to a retailer and not the end user.
Why don't you ask Tropar if they made the sale and see what they say?
From: Zonas [#24]
28 Aug 2005
To: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#23] 28 Aug 2005
Pete (and others), this thread was first started asking if others had problems with Tropar. I stated that my only problem was this 'bid deal'. I'm positive (since I've won several bids) that the provider of this item clearly knew they were not dealing with a retailer. The forms we have to complete during the bid process clearly state who is requesting the bids. I wish I could find this one item from other suppliers (believe me I look at all ARA shows), but I can't and there is still 1 or 2 years left on this contract, so there is nothing I can do. Do I have any other complaints with Tropar...no. These items have arrived in excellent shape to my customer, they engrave great and look good. Do I use Tropar - I can only think of twice in the last 9 years - and it was only because I had to match other plaques. I only pull out their catalog when I can't find something any place else - just to see if they carry it. I only stated my problem/concern to see if any others had ran into this also. If others haven't, great, I'm glad I'm the only one. If Tropar has changed their policy in the last couple of years that will be even better yet for me, if not I'll live with it. I have to many things going on right now to bother with calling Tropar about something that neither of us can change since they are committed to this contract. Maybe when the contract opens up again, I'll make the call, but not until then.
Zona
From: Doc (GREAT_ATLANTIC) [#25]
28 Aug 2005
To: ALL
Hi all...new to the forum. Thanks for providing it!
My company will never knowingly do business with a supplier that competes for our business. We do occassionally buy from Tropar, but we've never been in a position to compete. If that situation ever arises, everything Airflyte will become a memory. Customers rarely ask for the specific brand anyway (replacements only.)
I think Cindy hit the nail on the head: either you are a wholesale supplier or you are a retailer. At very least, if you opt for the wholesale route, you should stay within the boundaries of published MSRP if selling to the public. Undercutting dealers in a bid process is reprehensible. This is Business Ethics 101.
And the notion that this activity can somehow be rationalized by dealers who "gouge" is frankly none of a suppliers business. Consider the fact that while wholesale prices have increased substantially, the client expectation on pricing (particularly high volume clients like teams and schools) has not. Is our bottom line affected? Of course. But those products that can be sold at higher than average margins make up for low margin pains.
Maintain a list of "legacy" clients with whom you have done business for many years? Fine, but don't take exception when I go after that same business in a frenzy, perhaps even undercutting you with competitive products.
Ultimately it is the dealer and customer who should determine the end pricing with their wallets....not the suppliers. In a free market there are simply too many options to accept anything else.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#26]
29 Aug 2005
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#20] 29 Aug 2005
Roy - I only started noticing problems with Tropar last year. They have been a supplier of mine for over 15 years, and have always done a great job for me. In my original post, you'll see I was wondering if anyone knew of any changes in Tropar. The changes seem to be that their office staff can't seem to get instructions (given in writing) correct. If there is any "special handling" requested they ignore it.
For example, in March I had the ARA show to attend, and then I had to attend another trade show/conference back east. I was going to be out of the office for a total of 10 days. However, I knew that on the day I came back to work I had an order that needed to go out. The order came in the day before I was to leave for the ARA show, so not enough time to get the product I needed in prior to leaving. I faxed my order in, requesting that the shipment arrive the Friday before I returned on Monday, so it would be here for sure on the Monday I needed it. My shop would only be open some of the time while I was gone, and not during our UPS delivery hours.
To my surprise, I received a call from one of my employees while in LV wondering what she should do with the notice from UPS that they had tried to deliver the package - a full 6 days before I was to return. I had to have an employee make a special trip down to the UPS terminal to pick up the package since the hours they were covering didn't include when UPS did their regular delivery, or the package would have been returned to Tropar.
This is but one instance where they have caused me much inconvenience. There are a few more instances I could tell you about. And like I said, this all just started last year. Before that, if I asked them to hold an order to ship on a certain day, they had no problem doing so.
So I was wondering what, if anything, had changed. When I mentioned the error to the sales staff in LV (I was actually in their booth when I received the call from my employee ironically), they all laughed it off like I was joking with them, which I wasn't, and didn't act like it either.
So any insights in to management changes? It is truly a customer service problem, and I have pointed it out to them each time they have not done what I specifically have asked them to do - in writing each time.
Cindy
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#27]
29 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#26] 29 Aug 2005
Cindy,
Thanks for the details. I know there has not been any changes at the national level nor at the Texas warehouse, but am not familiar with the west coast operation. I bet this thread gets to national headquarters and an inquiry will result --- we may or may not be aware of the outcome.
From: Cindy (CINDYM) [#28]
29 Aug 2005
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#27] 29 Aug 2005
The Texas warehouse is where I am experiencing the problems. That is the closest warehouse to my location.
I hope someone there sees this thread and responds. I would love to keep them as a supplier, but I like to deal with customer service people who can follow instructions. I don't ask for something difficult, and it should be easy to do on their end.
We'll see what happens.
Cindy M
From: Pete (AWARDMASTERS) [#29]
29 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#28] 30 Aug 2005
Cindy,
Why don't you call and talk with Charles about your problems. I am sure he would listen and see that any problems are corrected.
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#30]
30 Aug 2005
To: Cindy (CINDYM) [#28] 31 Aug 2005
Cindy,
I too have noticed Tropar's quality declining as well as their willingness to correct their own problems. For example, I ordered 2 24 plate perpetual plaques and since my customer had one office on the East Coast and one in California, the customer paid for extra blank plates for me to keep and engrave as they called for them and mail to them. I ordered 100 extra plates and they all had some kind of oil or plasticizer that had migrated out of the release film on them that had to be scrubbed off with goo-gone and plenty of elbow grease. Tropar sent me another batch that had the same problem. When I complained and asked them to inspect all of the plates to remove the bad ones, they basically laughed it off as a ridiculous suggestion. They told me that they would replace only 48 of the plates and I would have to pay for the rest. The third replacement of 48 that I received was OK but I am still using goo-gone on the others.
I have had plaques drilled crooked, wrong part numbers in the box, clocks that don't work or are damaged out of the box, blemishes, dented piano finish, etc, etc.
I called the factory in New Jersey after one particularly bad incident and got the same response you got at the trade show - that what I was seeing was somehow a string of isolated incidents. I didn't have a fuzzy feeling that anything was going to change.
Sometimes I wonder if some of our suppliers know our business - that is, one where you CANNOT be late on an order. You can hear certain body parts tightening over the phone when you ask Tropar to air-ship replacements. Credits take so long it's easy to forget that they are coming. However, the dunning notices for overdue invoices that I won't pay - because I had to get a replacement shipped and I'm waiting for a credit - arrive like clockwork.
I have a problem with their choice of shipping box. I will order two plaques and they'll put them in a box 3 times larger than it needs to be and I end up paying for an oversized box if it's an express shipment - a good way to break even on a job. I complained until I was blue in the face and was told that was how they do it and that was UPS told them to do. Harrumph!
OK - I think that's enough.
I believe that most of the problems come from Texas and since its 4 days from Texas and 5 days from New Jersey, I try and use New Jersey if I can afford to wait the extra day. Doing so has eliminated a lot of problems but I am planning on phasing them out where possible. Too bad someone else doesn't make a wide variety of 'kit' plaques that are ready to go except for engraving. Their catalog with the 3x markup already printed is nice too. Wish someone else had something similar.
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