Full Version: Could this be dye sublimation?
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#1]
8 Sep 2005
To: ALL
Ok. I posted a couple of threads about a possible job I am trying to land. The business wanted names engraved on baby pacifiers made of polycarbonate plastic.
However, we have yet to be able to find anything that will bond and be nontoxic. The guy that is starting the business has a friend in NY (don't know what he does). He sent him a sample of the pacifier. The guy in NY said he thought it was done through dye sublimation.
When I received a sample of the pacifier you could feel the letters raised slightly. I sanded it down, thinking if it was just printed on it would disappear when I got to the plastic. Well, the name was just as clear and prominent as it was before I sanded (just not raised).
I don't know anything about dye sublimation. Is it possible dye sublimation did this? Also, he said the pacifiers were able to be thrown in the dishwasher and even cooked (boiled is my guess) and the name was not affected. Would the inks standup to that kind of abuse?
Thanks,
David
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#1] 8 Sep 2005
Dye Sub does not raise the material. It is just a transfer of color.
If the image " the name " was raised as part of the item.........it was moulded that way. How about hot stamping........The color is still going to be the problem..
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#3]
8 Sep 2005
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2] 8 Sep 2005
He used two separate companies. One makes the pacifiers and then they send it out to be engraved/sublimated/stamped or whatever is done. Would either of those two methods, sublimated or stamped be embedded into the plastic after applied?
As I mentioned, I sanded it smooth and the name was still there. That was what made me think it was engraved, then color filled. If it was just printed on top the name should just have just disappeared after sanding, right?
Thanks.
EDITED: 8 Sep 2005 by SEETHESUNRISE
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#4]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#3] 8 Sep 2005
Is this the same pacifier shown in message 1874.1
or another?
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=1874.1
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#5]
8 Sep 2005
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#4] 8 Sep 2005
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#5] 8 Sep 2005
You sanded it smooth/level.
1) How deep does it go?
2) Were the letters themselves raised, or just their perimeter? (In other words were the lines "lines" or two peaks with a valley/groove?)
I don't have the experience to know, But I wonder if if could have been done with a YAG system that discolored the plastic black. You might be able to give it to someone with a YAG for testing.
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#7]
8 Sep 2005
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#6] 8 Sep 2005
Yes, I sanded the letters smooth. I don't know how deep it goes because it's still there. It has to run fairly deep since I just tried to sand it again and get to the bottom...I still didn't get there, but one of my test engravings is nearly gone.
The letters themselves are raised. I thought about YAG too, but wouldn't it still engrave and not raise?
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#8]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#7] 8 Sep 2005
I don't know. I don't know how clean the edges would be for different materials. That's one of the reasons I was curious if the whole "engraved line" was raised, or just the edges. I don't know if a finger could differentiate, but a strong magnifier should. I have a 12x and a 30x magnifiers for evaluating engraving quality.
Try scratching/scraping across one of the letters with a sharp instrument. (Use the appropriate caution.)
- From what I've read, sublimation only works with polyester substrates.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#7] 8 Sep 2005
From you description and after taking another look at the pacifier, I'd say it's a route and color-fill.
The question is, "Color-filled with what?"
The image isn't very opaque, which either points to a hasty fill and cleaning operation, which didn't leave much enamel (or whatever) in the lettering, or, as mentioned earlier, the color could be India ink, which, by nature isn't very opaque.
Those are my guesses. Definitely not sublimation.
EDITED: 8 Sep 2005 by DGL
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#10]
8 Sep 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#9] 9 Sep 2005
Thanks. I tried India Ink, but it does not bond. I am not sure what you mean by hasty fill. Does you mean just filling in quickly and wiping the excess away?
He said the company he currently goes through is able to engrave (or whatever) 1000 per day. So I am assuming they had some machine doing the filling for them. I'll keep trying things.
Krylon Fusion is the only thing I have found that bonds. What is a little messed up to me is on Krylon's site they say all of their products are nontoxic. They also say in the description of this product that you can use it to spruce up an old toy.
Now, anyone that knows children knows they put things in their mouth. Yet, I wanted to make for certain it Krylon Fusion wasn't toxic. So I called and they said, we don't test it for ingestion. If that's the case, I don't know how they can say those two things without some liability if something goes wrong with someone that has used it.
Thanks.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#11]
8 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#10] 8 Sep 2005
A laser mark is not always an ablated (IE eroded) , the beam can heat the localised area and discolour it and the plastic might "foam" hence the rise in its surface and the fact that you think its a "hasty" fill
1000 a day is least 125 an hour , ie a cycle time of 15-25 secs each , that will not be a process involving a rotary engraver as fixing time etc would be more than that. Im sure its a Galvo laser of some type.
Has your customer given an indication of what they are currently paying ? That too would give you some idea of what process is used , part from which it would give you an idea of whether you should pursue this job.
From: Michael [#12]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#1] 9 Sep 2005
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#10] 9 Sep 2005
Yes, when I mentioned a hasty fill, I meant one which the paint (?) is applied and immediately wiped off. Normally, you'd let it partially dry before the final cleaning.
As Rodney mentioned, at 1000 pcs. per day, whoever is doing these isn't going to get bogged down in labor intensive marking/filling methods.
On the other hand, running multiple machines and with enough hands it's possible to hit that mark with rotary engraving.
Some companies who mark items for the ad specialty industry run 24 hr. operations, in 3 shifts.
From: trophyman (MIKEBERGER) [#14]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#1] 9 Sep 2005
EDITED: 9 Sep 2005 by MIKEBERGER
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#15]
9 Sep 2005
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 9 Sep 2005
One thing not mentioned that seems possible is to laser through a mask then use a fill, let it partially dry then remove the mask. That would give some depth and slightly raised edges the thickness of the mask.
As far as the fill, is it soft or hard? Is the area it is on soft or hard? That could give clues as to the fill.
If you can, cut into a piece of the fill, straight down, then at an angle to meet the first cut, cutting out a wedge. That will give you a depth of fill and show you if the bottom of the fill is a straight line or fades like sublimation will fade off.
EDITED: 9 Sep 2005 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#16]
9 Sep 2005
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#15] 9 Sep 2005
Thanks to everyone for their input. Masking is what I was going to be using to do this. I have two problems, finding the right paint/ink/whatever to bond to it.
The other problem I am having is perfecting the mask itself. I am using painter's tape. I would engrave through it, then when I go to pull it off (I waited various amounts of time) some of the paint that is on top of the mask would be pulled down to the letters like elastic & bunch up on the sides of the letters.
I thought it was fibers from the tape, but the more I looked the more I realized it was paint. It's so small that it's difficult to clean off and you can't do it with just water (depending on the paint).
For instance, in the word "Theis". I took one end of the tape and pulled slowly straight up immediately after applying the paint. Then, the right side of the "s", basically the very outside, paint bunched up and looked like fibers.
The longer I waited the worse it became. I waited 15 minutes because that's how long this one took to dry to touch and basically the paint "bunched" around all the letters.
EDITED: 9 Sep 2005 by SEETHESUNRISE
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#17]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#16] 9 Sep 2005
David,
Do not use painters tape as a mask for lasering, it does not hold well and the paint will seep underneath and make a mess. One of the better materials to use is vinyl applicator tape. it kind of looks like masking tape but has a smoother finish. It is used to transfer vinyl graphics onto banners and such.
Also, when color filling - let the paint dry - not just to the touch, but dry completly or the paint will peel right back out with the tape.
From: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#18]
9 Sep 2005
To: John (ICTJOHN) [#17] 9 Sep 2005
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#19]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#18] 9 Sep 2005
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#20]
9 Sep 2005
To: David (SEETHESUNRISE) [#19] 9 Sep 2005
David,
Specialty Tapes offers it as well.
Show messages: 1-20 21