Full Version: Advice-Getting Started
From: ARAMember [#3]
10 Sep 2004
To: jack (LIGHTHOUSETROPH) [#1] 10 Sep 2004
BEFORE you spend all that money, check out the PAB Blasting systems.
HALF the price, and they perform excellent. I feel they even have an edge over the "packages".
I have had a Model "D" now for 4+ years, and have never had a job I couldn't do with it, including many large, and on site jobs, which I couldn't even try without having a PORTABLE unit. (Including a job that was 900 pieces of 9' x 4' glass for a Mall in WI.)
For a cabinet, I bought a BlastBuddy cabinet from tiptools.com for around $100. Works Excellent!
On the attached link there is a picture of my blasting area. You can see the PAB in the far left, and the BlastBuddy cabinet.
Total cost around $950. AND I do feel the PAB has more adjustability!
Justin
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#4]
10 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#3] 10 Sep 2004
OK Justin,
You've peaked my interst again. PAB is only about 130 miles away from me & I have seen their unit at a table top show in Kansas City a couple of years ago. I have not dove into the sandblasting area yet, but it will probably be my next event. I think a setup like yours would work fine for me. How are you making the masks? Using your laser? Can you do any halftones or is that beyond laser masks ability? What else can you tell me (as in Do's & Don'ts)
John
From: jack (LIGHTHOUSETROPH) [#5]
10 Sep 2004
To: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#2] 10 Sep 2004
Dave,
I was referring to both
Jack
From: jack (LIGHTHOUSETROPH) [#6]
10 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#3] 10 Sep 2004
Thanks Justin,
Nice Shop ...
My thing is I don't know all the supplies etc.. recycling the blast material
how to make a mask for blasting???? I will call the folks at pab and see if they would help
thanks,
jack
From: ARAMember [#7]
10 Sep 2004
To: John (ICTJOHN) [#4] 10 Sep 2004
HE HE HE!
We use the photo resist process. Although it seems like a bear. It's not.
1. Measure graphic area, and design in Corel.
2. Print the graphic out on a special transparency treated for printing in an inkjet printer. (Of course you can use a laser printer, but I like the inkjet better as my blacks are ALWAYS black. Unlike a laser which depends on the developer, toner, paper moisture, coronas, etc.)
I get my transparencies from Photobrasive by the hundred sheet pack.
3. Cut off a piece of photoresist from the roll that is the size of the graphic your going to etch.
4. Put the transparency, on top of the resist, and put both in the UV Lectralight for 1 minute.
5. Put the resist on a plastic clipboard, and wash out untill the image is clear. (Harder to describe. In reality, simply spraying the resist with a special nozzel on the end of a hose for approx 1 minute. I do it in my deep sink)
6. Dry the resist with a hairdryier while still on the clipboard.
7. clean the glass you want to blast, and apply the resist. Squeege, peel off the carrier (thin plastic coating).
8. Blast.
9. Rinse the completed glass under warm water and peel the resist off.
Now, going back and rereading my process dosen't give the ease of it it's justice. As I have recently started doing "While you wait etching" in my shop.
I have the customer out of here in under 10 minutes! (While of course they are looking through the showroom!)
Today I did an order of 4 mugs for a wedding tommorow. And it took me just under 15 minutes. 4 large mugs @ $30 each. Mugs were $12, resist was $2, paper, transparency, blast media was approx $.90.
Ok, $15 cost, for $120 in. $105.00 profit in 15 min, or $405 profit an hour.
Need I say more?
I'm not sure where your located, but I would be happy to show you around the shop, and help you make your decision. It would cost you a steak dinner, but that's still a bunch cheaper than the training seminars.
The offer also stands for anyone else interested in any of the things we do, and you are looking into. That is of course, if your.....
"Not from around here", OR, "NOT thinking so WI might be a nice place to live!" lol
Justin
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#8]
10 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#7] 11 Sep 2004
Cool, I'm in Kansas and don't get up to WI, probably the closest is if we see each other in Vegas sometime, but you never know.....
I have made some stencils for one of my competitors out of just regular sign vinyl which seemed to work for just letters and bacis artwork.
Like I said, that may be my next adventure.
Thanks a lot,
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9]
10 Sep 2004
To: John (ICTJOHN) [#8] 11 Sep 2004
John,
I am in St. Joseph, MO. Not a bad drive from Wichita. I would also gladly extend you a tour of our equipment and etching process.
I have Photobrasive's Sandcarver II System from about 4 years ago. I us a 26-1KS nuArc Exposure Unit to develop the resist film. It is a bit pricey for a process that can be performed by a $295 Letrilite, but it is a great timesaver and the ideal method of accurately exposing your film to UV light.
If you are going to overkill anything in this process do it on your compressor and your dust collector. In my previous shop my sandblast cabinet was about five steps from my showroom. Sandblast dust was never much of a problem because I went with the 400 cfm dust collector unit.
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#10]
11 Sep 2004
To: jack (LIGHTHOUSETROPH) [#5] 12 Sep 2004
Although I don't have one,The photobrasive blasting system seems great, but expensive. I played with it a long while when at the ARA show in Vegas earlier this year. Loved the self containment and the fact you can it while blasting, comfortable. We use the Rapid-mask HD from Photobrasive and love it. No washout, no gluing. We also use the Later lite system of exposure.
Another big plus is Robert G who works for Nonabrasive. Extremely helpful and they do stand behind their products.
Hope this helps,
Dave
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#11]
11 Sep 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9] 11 Sep 2004
Dave,
I was up your way a couple of weeks ago, I took my daughter back to Minnesota to college. Of course it was a straight non-stop trip up & back over the weekend so you probably would not have been at work any way, but I'll keep it in mind as well. Of course everyone on this board is welcome to stop in here if they get to Wichita. I enjoy seeing how other people do things. Not only does it give me ideas, but I think it also kicks me in the butt so I don't get too lazy and in a rut.
From: precisionlaser [#12]
11 Sep 2004
To: ALL
This thread is very interesting to us, because we've been considering adding sandblasting to our products. We have an Epilog laser. Does any one use laserable resists? Any do's or don'ts in using this? Also would love any feedback on pressure pot systems versus non. It appears that the best is pressure pot, but I'm getting that third-hand...would love to hear from the experts on this board.
Thanks
Mark
From: ARAMember [#13]
11 Sep 2004
To: precisionlaser [#12] 11 Sep 2004
I was so excited when I got my laser, because I thought I could do all my resist with my laser, however, 90% of the glass we do is odd shaped, or round. And without the rotary attachment, I haven't done a single cut for etching on my laser.
Does anyone else use their laser for mugs, flutes, etc?
How well does it work?
Justin
From: precisionlaser [#14]
11 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#13] 11 Sep 2004
I have to admit that I wonder if lasering the resist isn't slower than a standard washout approach. My uneducated guess is that you may achieve more detail with the laser, but that unless the design is entirely or mostly vector cutting, it might be faster to expose and wash it out. Does this sound right to you?
Mark
From: ARAMember [#15]
11 Sep 2004
To: precisionlaser [#14] 11 Sep 2004
You just hit the reason I haven't dropped the $1500 for the rotary attachment! I'm afraid I'd be dissapointed, and out a trip to MN Ice fishing for a week.
Justin
From: precisionlaser [#16]
11 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#15] 11 Sep 2004
Yeah, I don't think I'll make any assumptions about laserable resists at this point.
Now, to another question for everyone...if you wanted to create your own blasting setup cheap and were willing to put it together from pieces and parts, where and what would you get? For example...I already own a 6 gallon compressor, moisture filter, hose, etc. If I have my thinking right, you could buy a blasting cabinet and attach some sort of pressure pot to it to get started. Just looking around, Harbor Freight has some cheap stuff for sale. Do you think it would be realistic to assemble a decent setup?
Mark
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#17]
11 Sep 2004
To: precisionlaser [#12] 11 Sep 2004
Mark,
A pressure pot system is the only way to go. I would take it a step further and get a system that has the pressure pot built into the bottom of your blasting cabinet. There are a couple of major benefits to this.
1. Efficiency - When you cycle through the volume of blasting media in your system it is necessary to transfer it from your blasting cabinet back into the pressure pot. With well-engineered blasting cabinets all you do is depressurize the pot, taking all of about 15 seconds, then a spring-loaded door automatically opens and your sandbasting media funnels back into the pot from the bottom of your blasting cabinet. Systems that do not have the pot built into the cabinet will require you to empty the media in the bottom of the blasting cabinet into a container (creating some pretty good dust) and then transfer it into the seperate pressure pot (creating more dust).
2. Cleaner - See above!
I have never done an intense study on whether it was cheaper to use laser resist or photo resist material for etching, but it is my procedure to use laser resist for flat glass items and photo resist for round and odd-shaped items. Both processes produce excellent results.
I have used laser resist material and the rotary attachment in my Epilog with very good results, but I still find this type of job, from set-up to completion, is performed more easily with photo resist.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#18]
11 Sep 2004
To: ARAMember [#13] 11 Sep 2004
Justin,
I would agree that most rotary attachments for lasers will set idle for long periods of time. Mine did until I got hooked up with a manufacturer of goose, duck and turkey calls.
I still use my laser with laser resist material on flat items, as it helps tremendously in keeping the image lined up and centered correctly. With photo-resist it takes a good eye and more time to get things lined up and centered correctly.
EDITED: 11 Sep 2004 by DATAKES
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19]
11 Sep 2004
To: precisionlaser [#14] 11 Sep 2004
Mark,
You would not be pleased with the results you get by vector-cutting laser resist material. This process actually creates a vector line in your glass that results in a deeper etch than the rest of your image. Some people use this process, but a customer that has an eye for detail will notice this and not be pleased.
From: precisionlaser [#20]
11 Sep 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#19] 11 Sep 2004
David, thank you for your posts...good info and very helpful to us! One last question: knowing what you know now as an experienced blaster, how would you approach adding sand blasting to your operation? Any specific suppliers, equipment, etc.? How much money would be reasonable to expect to need to spend to set up a reasonable "getting started" environment?
Thanks again!
Mark
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#21]
11 Sep 2004
To: precisionlaser [#20] 12 Sep 2004
Mark,
I have offered sandcarving from the start of my business about three and a half years ago. I would not change any of the equipment I started with and continue to use today.
Before I opened my business I had the free time to take a week-long workshop with Norm and Ruth Dobbins in Duluth, MN. Wow, was that the best decision I have ever made during the start-up of my business.
Next to sublimation, glass etching has the most affordable start-up costs of any of the methods used to personalize products. With that being said, it is also one of the most labor intensive processes that needs to and does command a premium price.
The initial equipment investment has quite a range to it. A quality start-up system will include the following.
1. Blasting Cabinet w/attached pressure pot and dust collector - $2,595
2. Letrilite Exposure Unit - $255
3. Photo Resist Film Dryer - You can use a blow dryer, but it makes more sense to use a drying cabinet so you can start another job as your film is drying. - $290
4. Air Compressor - The best measure of a compressor's capacity is the volume of air it produces, not its horsepower. Volume is measured as CFM (cubic feet per minute) and is always rated at a certain air pressure. It is my understanding that the best compressors for blasting are rated at a minimum of 11.5 CFM at 90 PSI. I would try to get a compressor that will produce twice the air consumed by your blaster.
5. Washout Area - You will need an area to wash out the exposed film. This has been accomplished in many ways. I use a mop sink with an acrylic enclosure that helps to contain the overspray. I have seen others use simple utility sinks. This requirement is wide open to your creativity. At Photobrasive they have a custom stainless unit that has a white acrylic backlit area that allows you to see through your film as you wash it out. Nice!!!
6. Laser or Inkjet Printer - Most of us are in pretty good shape in this area. I use a cheap, small HP1012 LaserJet. Some laser printers are finiky about the way they handle and print on the vellum paper that is required in the photo resist development process.
There are some suppliers that are now offering an inkjet film that produces an image that is opaque enough to use in the exposure process. This film is much more expensive than the vellum that is used with laser.
7. Blasting Media - Aluminum Oxide or Silicon Carbide? I use silicon carbide because it is harder than aluminum oxide and cuts more quickly. It also does not create the static electricity that you get with aluminum oxide, which causes the dust to cling to the back of the glass while being blasted. This phenomenon makes it more difficult to see your work as it is being blasted. Aluminum oxide is half the cost of silicone carbide, but that isn't incentive enough for me to make the change.
There are some smaller incidentals you will need to get started. Items such as resist film, squeegees, replacement nozzles, U.V. glue, glass cleaner, razor blades, etc.
The most notable vendors for equipment are Photobrasive, Glastar and Rayzist. They make superior equipment and consumables geared for the small and volume producers in our industry.
A wealth of information on this subject can also be found at www.sandcarver.org.
EDITED: 12 Sep 2004 by DATAKES
From: precisionlaser [#22]
12 Sep 2004
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#21] 12 Sep 2004
David,
Thanks for your very comprehensive reply! I really appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I take it from your post that you must have a nice set up. Re: Norm and Ruth Dobbins, I had already contacted them a few months ago about their courses in NM, but I had wondered if it wouldn't be smarter to take the money I would spend on that trip and put it toward equipment. I'll take another look at them again.
Thanks again!
Mark