Full Version: My suggestion on cermark
From: Swami [#1]
28 Mar 2006
To: ALL
After years of frustration, and following the directions of the experts,
i decided to give it a try one more time.
I took a very small amount of cermark and dilute with alcholal, now instead of pasting is thick and even on the piece of steel that i got, i did the opposite-very very thin and even, one would notice that it doesn't look like the steel is covered with "enough" cermark, but trust me, it is more than enough, so after giving it enough time to dry in engrave at 600dpi, 100 power, and 10 speed with my 35watt epilog radius laser, i then washed it with soapy water and dried it with a paper towel, i left it to see if it would rub off, but it didn't, My conclusion is that DO NOT USE WATER TO DILUET THE CERMARK, YESS WATER. A IDIOT, WHO SUPPOSE TO BE VERY MUCH AN EXPERT ON THIS SAID TO USE WATER, if i told you all WHO you would be surprised,. And secondly use very little cermark,
Give it a try and if anyone has another suggestion please let me know
From: JHayes55 [#2]
28 Mar 2006
To: Swami [#1] 29 Mar 2006
Swami
Glad you got it work. I talking with the CerMark reps at Las Vegas last month - I told them that we were getting best result thinning the CerMark paste much thinner than they recommend (2-1) with pure denatured alcohol.
Currently I am using about a 8-1 ration by volume and applying with an airbrush. I have used foam brush to do small single jobs to save getting out air brush and clean up. Thin even coats work the best as you have said. Part of the reason is when applied too thick your laser power is absorbed in the thick CerMark and heat is dissipated instead of getting to the metal where it needs to be.
I have never thinned with water but have heard it said on a few occasions.
I do follow CerMark recommendaitons on using Denatured Alcohol - I just do not follow their recommendations on thinning. Since using thinner CerMark I have never had a marking problem on SS.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3]
28 Mar 2006
To: JHayes55 [#2] 28 Mar 2006
The recommendations here have always been to apply it as thin as possible. Just enough to not have pinholes in the sprayed coating. I have always seen the thinner recommended as alcohol on this forum.
The 8-1 ratio is the first time I have seen it. But it makes tons of logical sense. The thin coat, fast drying so you can spray a few passes and get a very thin, pinhole free coating, sounds like a real winner.
From: JHayes55 [#4]
28 Mar 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#3] 28 Mar 2006
Harvey - I use a lot of CerMark every month of 1 industrial client. I started out mixing according to directions - each new batch (I mix up enough for about a month at a time) I have continued to thin more and more.
Currently at 8-1 ratio - best I can tell this seem to be about right for me.
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#5]
28 Mar 2006
To: Swami [#1] 29 Mar 2006
Since you didn't give us any clues in your profile, I suspect I'm the idiot. Sorry if I gave you bad information. I must confess that I don't engrave for a living, I sell machines for a living. I personally use water to dilute cermark because it is available *everywhere* I might be demonstrating and in need of thinning.
The manufacturers of the Cermark product indicated to me that what was used to dilute the paste really didn't matter as long as no coagulation takes place. Early on, I ran a few side by side comparisons and couldn't tell the difference between water and alcohol. Acid, abrasion, weather tests were performed and I couldn't tell the difference.
It has always been my assumption that most people use alcohol because it dries faster, not because it is any better --- if I'm wrong, I yield to your experience.
From: Peter [#6]
28 Mar 2006
To: ALL
And so Roy tells us he is not an Engraver :O
And so Roy tells us he sells the equipment................... :-)
And so Roy is one of the most up front, eat humble pie , honest guys in the Business... :-)
Anybody else want to kick him whilst he is laying down covering his face on the ground ???????????????? >.<
come on , any takers , lay your boots in whilst he has rolled over..... (devil)
Good on you Roy !!!. :D
No wonder you are so well respected in this industry..Because you have the foresight ( humility ) to listen, learn and move on...( and thats why you are so successful ) :-)
Best wishes
Peter
EDITED: 28 Mar 2006 by PETER
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#7]
28 Mar 2006
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#5] 29 Mar 2006
From: JHayes55 [#8]
29 Mar 2006
To: ALL
My personal observations:
CerMark - works well for the purposes designed. How you mix it, how you apply, how you laser varies as much as the operator of the laser.
Best way to figure it out is testing - after researching as much as possible.
Failure can be caused by many things - most are under the control or the user. Figure out how it works best for you, figure out why it failed when it does - correct your mistakes - move on. Nothing wrong with water if it works for you, nothing wrong with denatured alcohol if it works for you, - how would it work with buttermilk? I don't know - but if you got time and a an interest in trying it, go ahead, you never know what you might discover.
Note: following directions of any manufacture is always a good place to start and should work. Sometimes going outside the box may work even better - but you have to be willing to accept the consequences. Most new discoveries were unplanned and sometimes accidental. Your decision follow the recommendations or experiment.
I agree with my friend Peter.
Roy Brewer is the best - totally capable of taking care of himself but if he ever needs any help you might have to fight me to be first in line to help him!
Roy - your not the only one I have heard recommend water.
From: Swami [#9]
29 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I didn't say the Idiot was Roy, i guess people misinterpreted me, English is such a hard language to understand, anyhow, the reason i didn't like to use water was that the cermark used to leave a frosty or foggy stain on the "chrome" piece, I tried with alcohol after wards and there was no stains,
Sorry Roy, no harsh feelings?
From: JHayes55 [#10]
29 Mar 2006
To: Swami [#9] 3 Apr 2006
Are you engraving Chrome or stainless steel - big difference in settings - at least on the Chrome that I have done.
Swami - where are you from - there is nothing in your profile page so it is hard to tell when someone is not used to using english - many of us here have trouble with english (I am talking about me) :S even though it is our native tongue. Most of us have figured out how to understand some Hawaiian and Aussie ;-)
From: Boz (CHEDDARHEAD) [#11]
29 Mar 2006
To: ALL
I'm glad to hear we have affixed blame. Now, whenever we have any doubt, it has to be Roy Brewer, AKA The Pedaler, who can be blamed.
Thanks for lifting that load off my shoulders (devil)
From: jeanettebrewer (JEANETTEBREWER2) [#12]
29 Mar 2006
To: Swami [#9] 3 Apr 2006
Swami,
Since daddy won't see your post until this evening (when he checks into his Motel 6), I'll assure you, now, that there are no harsh feelings. It takes a LOT more than that for him to have harsh feelings toward someone! :-)
EDIT: Added the original quote.
EDITED: 29 Mar 2006 by JEANETTEBREWER2
From: Peter [#13]
29 Mar 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#7] 29 Mar 2006
Hi Rodney,
How thin do you make it?
Do you mix it all at once or as needed ?
How long before the product exhausts itself and is no longer useable?
How do you reconstitute the powder ?
regards
Peter
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#14]
29 Mar 2006
To: Peter [#13] Unread
From: Johnny Orange (LIFETIME) [#15]
30 Mar 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#14] 30 Mar 2006
Hi Rodney.
Interesting to read you use a little dishwashing liquid as a wetting agent.
TRUE STORY - I was coating some S/S the other day and I too use a brush (a finehaired brush) not an air brush as there is more control and no overspray. The cermark was drying out slightly faster than normalas we were running in outside air temperature in the middle 30's. I recalled back to my old Army days of the good old spit and polish. I actually spat on the plate with a little saliva and Whacko the cermark started to flow more evenly and smoothly.
Hence your suggestion with a little dishwashing liquid was rather interesting
Why not give it a try "really works"
I try and obtain a smooth thinly layered surface and I just don't have any washouts at all.
We engrave an enormous amount of S/S during the week
Orange