Full Version: A Day Without Immigrants

From: precisionlaser [#11]
 1 May 2006
To: ALL

I don't blame the immigrants, illegal or otherwise. This country is a country of immigrants and that's for the better, not the worse. I don't see any last names like "Running Deer" on this forum. We're all immigrants and while you can say your family came over (or up or down) legally, that was during a time when the laws made a heck of a lot more sense than they do now. I think the problem is NOT with the poor people who work back breaking jobs for little pay and consider that a step up from what they had before. How can we criticize them when our own families in many cases were running away from persecution, lack of opportunity, hunger or otherwise? If we do, we're hypocrites, plain and simple.

If you want to criticize fairly, criticize the spineless, gutless pond scum we elected into office, who have known that this issue was coming, and couldn't find the time or have the guts to deal with this fairly. Or the companies (all who had to close plants down to deal with this), who are taking advantage of these people. Wow, if we make them legal, and we give them social security numbers, payroll costs go up...it's so much more convenient to pretend and ignore.

The problem is not with the immigrants, it's with the "man (or woman) in the mirror". Just my two cents...

Mark


From: Carl (SCHOONERBIRD) [#12]
 1 May 2006
To: ALL

Here in SW Florida, there is a large Hispanic population with heavy employment in agriculture. They are also heavily represented in construction and you will be very unlikely to find non-Hispanic landscape/lawncare companies. It's been estimated in the local press that as many as 50% could be here illegally.

To me, the problem (as it nearly always does) has its origins in Washington, DC where our elected Congressmen and Senators do whatever it takes to get re-elected and screw the rest of the country. Is the collective memory of Americans so short that we forget the events of 9/11? If we do not control who enters our country, we will most surely experience other attacks. No rocket science here-- leave the border unprotected and sooner or later a nuke is going to be driven into this country by our enemies. I'm far more concerned about that than I am about anything else.

This country was built with the blood and sweat of many immigrants who arrived lawfully, and they felt that good fortune had landed upon them. They were proud to be in America and wanted to be part of the USA, not change America into an extension of their former homeland. A citizen was quoted in the local paper over the weekend as having said that referring to someone as an undocumented immigrant makes about as much sense as calling a burglar an uninvited house guest. I think most Americans welcome legal immigrants, but object to those that refuse to respect our laws and borders. To me it all starts with stopping illegals from crossing the border. The solution to those already here will be difficult, and many will not be pleased, but standing by while hundreds of thousands more come into the country as they please is just absurd.


From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13]
 1 May 2006
To: Carl (SCHOONERBIRD) [#12] 1 May 2006

Carl,

Politicians have no vested interest in seeing the borders tightened up.

It's better to talk tough, while accepting campaign donations from the Hotel Associations, Restaurant Associations, etc.

It's like the failing war on drugs. Where there's big money, there's big corruption and collusion.

Gee! If I'd known this thread would become so controversial, I never would have initiated it. (devil) 

EDITED: 1 May 2006 by DGL


From: gt350ed [#14]
 1 May 2006
To: Carl (SCHOONERBIRD) [#12] 1 May 2006

There is lots of blame to go around, but it certainly starts when a person crosses into the United States illegally. It continues when our laws, for whatever reason, are not enforced. Employers are the biggest problem. They are knowingly hiring illegals. Why? In part because of a need to compete; in part, because of greed. But the fact is, the employers are allowed to break the law. Make it expensive for employers to hire illegals and we'll go a long way toward a solution.

In addition to enforcing our existing laws, we need to change a few. Starting with the law that gives citizenship to a child born here of parents who are not here legally. If the parents are illegal, the child born here should be illegal. Period. Do whatever it takes to make this the law of the land...and enforce it.

Make legal immigration a national priority. Speed up the process. Take this excuse away from those using it to enter illegally.

Take away schooling, driver licensing and social services for illegals. Whatever needs to be done, should be done. No more funding. Whatever it takes.

Couple this with an amnesty for those that can prove they've been working here productively for at least 5 years, and, again, the problem will go a long way toward being solved.

But any amnesty without the other provisions is a joke and further illegal immigration will be guaranteed.

Can it be accomplished? Yes, but not if we count on Washington. It will take will. There is NO will in Washington. The WILL must come from the citizenry that finally must be fed up. And therein lies the problem. The citizenry wants someone else to take care of it....like their politicians.

So, in the end, we're screwed. Lock and load. Because we truly are under attack.

From: precisionlaser [#15]
 1 May 2006
To: Carl (SCHOONERBIRD) [#12] 1 May 2006

I guess I am a descendent of undocumented immigrants...since laws governing this didn't exist (heck the country didn't exist) in the early 1600s. This makes me wonder when laws were actually put on the books to govern immigration, and what percentage of our population is descended from such "undocumented immigrants". In other words and to look at it another way, what percentage of the population came to this country and had to immigrate through some sort of legal mechanism...I don't have any idea, but I'd bet it would be an interesting (and impressive) number!

I don't disagree that people should respect the law, but when the law is so obviously outdated and uneforceable, and when our politicians are so obviously unable and unwilling to create a fair and enforceable set of laws, the blame can't be laid totally on the immigrants. The problem is in Washington, and we're the ones making the decisions on who we send there. Mid-term elections are coming....George W. Bush says "he's the decider". He's wrong...we're the deciders!


From: precisionlaser [#16]
 1 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 1 May 2006

Right, David...I'm sure it never crossed your mind that there might be a few opinions and attitudes out there about this ;-)  You're like the guy in the old beer commercial who would start the "tastes great, less filling" argument (devil) 

From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17]
 1 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 1 May 2006

There are multiple issues to deal with.

1) Use the available technology to prevent more people from entering illegally. (We have satellites, we should use them.) This must be done first.

2) Work out the systems for people who want to enter on a temporary basis for work. (Minimum wage here is what a doctor earns there. Many want to earn the money to build a house back home. The entrepenurial ones add a few extra rooms for rental income and a store front on the first floor. This makes staying in Mexico more desirable for others.)

3) Work out the systems for people who want to enter to stay. (Those who want to learn the language and culture and become citizens. These are the ones who can be compared to my grandparents and great grandparents.)

4) Work out how to handle those who are already her illegally.

Last I heard there is a 10 year waiting list to enter legally from Mexico.

Being convicted of a crime should be grounds for permanent deportation. This should also include use of false ID/names.


From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#18]
 1 May 2006
To: gt350ed [#14] 2 May 2006

Ed,

What do you feel should be done with the illegal who goes to the hospital for care? (Currently the hospital writes it off or medicare pays.)

This is a loaded question because it includes handling our own poor and ID.

Note: Many of the ID's used by Mexicans are not 'fake'. People in Puerto Rico with no plans to come to the US will sell their IDs to Mexicans. The names and photos are similar enough to pass.


From: Mick [#19]
 1 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#18] 1 May 2006

Ken

"(Currently the hospital writes it off or medicare pays.)"

In both scenarios, YOU and I pay, not the hospital or Medicare !!!!


From: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20]
 1 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#17] 1 May 2006

2) Work out the systems for people who want to enter on a temporary basis for work. (Minimum wage here is what a doctor earns there. Many want to earn the money to build a house back home. The entrepenurial ones add a few extra rooms for rental income and a store front on the first floor. This makes staying in Mexico more desirable for others.)

Ken,

The only problem with #2 is that the money is leaving the US. I don't see any of these people paying taxes. And if they want to start a business in this country the government gives them the buildings and tax breaks. I wish it was that easy for me to get started.

From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#21]
 1 May 2006
To: Mick [#19] 2 May 2006

Unfortunately I'm aware of that. I just dropped my health insurance because I can't afford it. If I got sick, I would be responsible for the bills. And without insurance I would not have the benefit of the negotiated rates. The hospitals would love it if I got sick. The illegal and many legal immigrants don't have the house, car, and credit rating to protect.

( I am also amazed by the number of legal people getting government assistance for paying rent, yet they can afford cable tv, cell phones, SUVs, and other luxuries.)


From: Rose (RSLIEPKA) [#22]
 1 May 2006
To: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20] 2 May 2006

For me, I feel like I have been slapped in the face. Second generation Europeans have been known to shed a tear at the Statue of Liberty, not demonstrate on the platform.
This feels very personal to me and if you look at it on a 1 on 1 level this is the best analogy I have seen.

Dear Illegal Immigrant
You came to my house that my parents helped me buy, said you needed some help. I let you stay in the spare bedroom for a couple of years. During that time I fed you when you didn't have anything to eat, I gave you band-aids when you hurt yourself and did what I could when you needed help. Sure you worked hard during that time, so did I. I also paid taxes, followed the rules and served jury time when it wasn't exactly convenient or profitable. Some of your relatives served in the U.S. military as did many of mine. It doesn't earn us any extra points, it's what you do. I helped you until MY children started to suffer. Imagine my disappointment when one day you are not happy with the spare bedroom, and you demand the master bedroom. Heck, when you first got here you said you'd be happy to sleep on the floor! On May 1st, you block my driveway, make my life difficult and TELL me that I WILL accept you on your terms. When you come "home" tonight, don't expect your key to work.
Signed, Uncle Sam, just not YOUR Uncle Sam


From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#23]
 1 May 2006
To: Denny K (JDLASERGIFTS) [#20] 2 May 2006

Denny,

I don't see a way to keep money from leaving the country. The best we can do is set up a system for people to work here legally, then atleast we could collect taxes. (I guess that's an argument for income vs sales tax.) Notice previously I attentionally put the issues I felt need to be dealt with, but did not put any solutions.

Make them pay what everyone else pays, but they should not be eligible to collect unemployment, or SS. They should also have a license and insurance for their cars like everyone else. (By the way, many of the illegal residents I've spoken with would get a license/insurance for their car if they could. Many states are now preventing this, but they still need to drive and are taking the chance doing so. - If they get a ticket it doesn't alert immagration.)

Seeing that we're only talking about those who are entering for a limited time with the goal of earning money to send home, I have no problem with also limiting some of the normal tax deductions. And unless their kids have one US parent they should not be citizens. They should not be eligible for credit either. Temporary workers should not be building long term security/lives here.

As I said I would treat those looking to stay differently. Among other things learning English.


Message 3682.24 was deleted


From: Frazee1 [#25]
 2 May 2006
To: ALL

It was nice around my small town in NC. I wish they would do it more often. I didn't come in to work this morning and have to clean up trash left out in the parking lot from the hispanic grocery store next door. It was a great day! My Monday was slack (it normally is) except for the Mexican that came in to place a large soccer tournament order, and a few small orders here and there. Monday would have been the best day to go to Walmart around here! I missed my chance to enjoy shopping.

Message 3682.26 was deleted


From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27]
 2 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#26] 2 May 2006

I reckon you should delete the thread , I KNEW David was opening up a can of worms here!!! :) 
Problem is that positions , stances etc taken here polarise the community and this affects the quality of Tech type posts in that in reading em , you are often coloured or skewed by the posters personal position taken and only serves to generate some animosity.
I reckon can it , it's already gettting nasty.


From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#28]
 2 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27] 2 May 2006

Rodney,

Another very effective option, for those objecting to this thread, or an individual within, is to use the "Ignore" button, a radio button located below the post(s), with a heading preceeded by: "Rate My Interest", which will restore a members peace of mind, by allowing them to "selectively" (for all practical purposes) delete the thread.

That option worked very well for me, in the "Stephen Spence" upheaval.

Some will rate the thread "Interested" while others will choose to "Ignore."

Knowing we have members across the full spectrum of interest, I think freedom of choice should prevail.

EDITED: 2 May 2006 by DGL


From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#29]
 2 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#27] 2 May 2006

I am sure that David figured that it might be a can of worms also.

I consider it a far more accurate poll of opinions than any pollster can produce. We are far better off by knowing what opinions are out there than burying our heads in the sand.


From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#30]
 2 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#29] 2 May 2006

I agree Harvey.

It's a very emotional issue because it affects us all on a personal level. It's frustrating to be an american citizen and be expected to care of everyone with our tax dollars. It's one thing to take care of the citizens of our own country, but to have people that have come to our country illegally, demand some sort of special rights in this country seems ridiculous to me.

I'm frustrated especially with my political party.......Both major parties for that matter, because neither seems to be doing what's right for the legal citizens here....Everyone is more worried about getting voted in to office, and having cheap labor, than doing what's best for our country, our national security, and our legal citizens.

I Highly doubt that Uncle Steve meant that he would do anything as brash as shoot anyone. It's the frustration that is speaking loud and clear. Once again, the vocal minority is working to shift the rules to their benefit....Instead of having rules that are to the benefit of the whole country.

This problem should unite the majority of americans, but seems to divide....all because so many people feel as if they and others should be entitled to something that was never promised by our forefathers or anywhere in our constitution........Citizenship without due process.


The entitlement attitude seems more prevalent in our society as a whole. People want the government to "take care" of them. They look for someone else to foot the bill, and make everything alright for them.

The realists among us can see that this can't go on forever......

I believe that to fix the mess that we are in, that we must declare our sovereignty and close all borders to illegals. Really close them.....not just say so.

Come up with a good way to make legal immigration easier, and a better choice than illegal immigration.

Decide how best to handle the illegal immigrants that have already found their way into our system. Find ways to create the incentive to go through a process that would allow them to become legal. That means punishing/deporting people that intend to go on without going through this process....

Companies must be held responsible for hiring someone that they know is illegal. Illegal immigrants must be punished harshly if they misrepresent themselves to a company.

These people that would become "legal immigrants in training" would have to pay taxes, and go through this process before they are entitled to any free education, or free health care in this country. Having rewards for breaking our laws becomes incentive for more bad behavior.

Allow the free market to provide the "naturalization" training with classes on English, American History, Sociology, and other worthy subjects.

No one wants anyone to forget their nationality, but they must become Americans First...

My .02

Brian G.

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