Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#18]
4 May 2006
To: ALL
Hmmm..... I dont get any huge value out of the site , but myself and many others contribute greatly out of a sense of free interchange of info on the internet. We are the folk that do add value to the forum.
I understand the financial dillema , but to be blunt I cannot see myself paying subs to this forum to do so - the clipart wont tempt me either. How many of the other folk that do chip in more then ask will want to pay for the privildge of doing so? Where does one draw the line when it comes to this?
One of the photographic forums I belonged to (robgalbraith) , habituead by pros etc changed to a pay forum , was only a week ago and I no longer go there and their traffic has dropped dramatically. Everyone said yes , they would pay (only $25 for a year) but when it came to crunch time , most declined. We just all moved elsewhere.
I would also like to know whether the archives will be free to read as these should not be included in any subscription based forum, they were given free , so should remain so.
How will newbies even gauge the value of the forum if they have to pay to read?
Many other issues come to mind , but to cut a long story shot , I think that when this forum becomes a pay to view/read/post entity , it's finished.
I would seriously try to cut some other deal , perhaps with advertisers or suppliers or find another means of supporting the forum other than asking users to pay. If this is indeed the premier engraving/Laser forum on the internet , then suppliers should be queueing up.
I wouldn't care a whit if I saw ads on the forum at all , I dont think there will be an issue in terms of them calling the shots either.
I think this is a very bad move.
EDITED: 4 May 2006 by RODNEY_GOLD
From: UncleSteve [#19]
4 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#18] 5 May 2006
Many of us consider .22/day worth it for the entertainment factor alone, not to mention the education, sourcing and comraderie.
When things get hectic, what else can you do for under a quarter (US) to break the tension?
From: JHayes55 [#20]
4 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#17] 5 May 2006
David L., Harvey, David T. - Count me in for the ride - wherever it goes I want a front seat - bugs on the windsheild and all.
I do have a question - you have a lot of couples and companies who have more than one person who particiaptes on the forum - I will assume a membership is for a single individual - or is for a company / family???
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#21]
5 May 2006
To: UncleSteve [#19] 5 May 2006
From: UncleSteve [#22]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#21] 5 May 2006
I agree that most of the forums I visit and participate in would not be worth a fee in my opinion. But for others it would be.
That is why I decided that this forum IS one that I would get my money's worth from.
You know we will miss you and your great contributions to the value, but there is more to this forum than "Rodney" that makes it worth my investment to me. BTW, it IS tax deductible as a business expense for most of the members.... so here in the US of A the government will actually pick up roughly a third of the cost...
I wish you well in your endeavors and you will be missed. :-(
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
5 May 2006
To: JHayes55 [#20] 5 May 2006
An annual membership will be good for two people from the same company, i.e. husband/wife/owner/employee.
From: sprinter [#24]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
From: JHayes55 [#25]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23] 5 May 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#18] 5 May 2006
I'm not surprised to find that you see little value in this site; I'd say that's primarily because you're a special case.
Just as you see the awards and engraving industry related trade shows, as too limited a venue, for a person of your breadth and width of knowledge, by natural extension, an awards and engraving industry related forum will hold little in store for you.
I agree with that assessment.
Despite the harbingers of doom, my entire career has been a story of hatching success by "doing it all wrong."
As an employee, my bent for taking on most any job, which was considered lunacy and too risky, by most engraving outlets, saw the shop I worked for, flourish, with customers coming from all over Southern California.
When I decided to go on my own, the concept of having a business with almost no inventory, which relied heavily on engraving customer-provided merchandise, wasn't given a snowball's chance.
Today, I enjoy a unique niche, in having fellow engravers, who find many projects too daunting, as a goodly portion of my customer base.
I don't consider myself a special case at all.
My message has always been one of encouraging people to get started on any level, in any way possible; which, over time, with sound businesses practices, which we regularly discuss here, should see their collection of small victories, turn into profitable independent businesses.
You mentioned that the photo site you belonged to, turned into a pay site a week ago. Isn't it a little premature, to call their change of format a resounding failure?
You no doubt, have a collection of posts on their site. What is/was their answer to your concern over archived information?
Will we see a drop in traffic?
Most assuredly; I absolutely expect it.
Does that mean our traffic will stagnate, at whatever level we begin with?
Very doubtful.
I'll go so far, as to say, there are many people who currently view the forum, as lurkers, who will come out of the shadows, with amazing posts, once they know, what they consider to be "insider" information, won't be available to the general public.
Who knows? Maybe a new "Rodney Gold" will emerge.
There's no mandate to join for a year; or at all, for that matter.
If newbies take a leap of faith, in the way of a $10 investment, which, by the way, is less than two gallons of gasoline, in many parts of the world, they'll enjoy 30-days of access.
During that period, if they don't see something of value here (which is extremely unlikely) they never will; but they won't have gone broke, in the process.
I'm actively in the process of cutting a deal with industry suppliers, as well as paid members.
The deal with industry suppliers, is an opportunity to advertise to a prime demographic, with their only costs being a paid membership and an exclusive offer to our paid members.
What's in it for paid subscribers, other than the supplier offers, is my heightened sense of responsibility, to ensure they get their hard-earned money's worth.
I don't take that responsibility lightly.
In the end, the irrefutable law of supply and demand will prevail.
Our members will demand and we'll supply. :-)
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#27]
5 May 2006
To: JHayes55 [#25] 5 May 2006
Yes, we'll post an official announcement, which will contain more details.
I hadn't originally planned to raise this topic, before making the official announcement, which would have come very soon.
Having our .org name unexpectedly in limbo, compelled me to let people know, that regardless of if we ever fly under that name again, the site may have been down, but we're far from down and out.
It was time to announce our next level.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#28]
5 May 2006
To: UncleSteve [#22] 5 May 2006
As much as you might think I overestimate my importance , I really think that you overestimate this forums. It's a great place to be , nice folk , great sense of community but I really dont think that it influences the industry to any large extent and it's certainly not worth paying for. I can do better with the money - like a years subscription to clipart com that has way more than 700 pieces.
I'm not even from the usa , so wont get the tax break and the $99 is a lot more in my country than for you. At the end of it all , why do ! even HAVEto have a justification for payment when none was required before???
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26] 5 May 2006
The other forum made the archives free to view and imho if you convert this to a pay site , that has be the case here.
On the other forum , the issue was the Copyright of the articles and post which remains with the author notwithstanding anything they had on the site rules etc
When they were bought over and the site was about to be changed to charge anyone to see em , a lot of the authors objected strongly due to the fact thay posted the stuff freely and at the time never expected or wanted it to be used to generate income.
You are actually offering diddly squat for the subs David , the clipart is mickey mouse Your advertisers will want to see figures etc before commiting money , for that you need more traffic , not less (and assuredly as you say , the no's will drop)
PPL coming to this forum or other specialised ones ARE the demographic , only ppl interested in engraving and related fields will visit them , be it yours or anyone elses. I think it really sucks to both have to pay to view and then also be targeted by advertisers. I would suggest one or the other.
From: scroller (JEFF) [#30]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
From: bruce (BBSD) [#31]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
I agree with with you Rodney. They are acting like the Bank ATM's - free until they got you, then wham pay to use.
$99/yr is too much. I feel you will lose many.
The users of this free forum have contributed freely. We sell nothing to the others within it.
This is a great forum. Its too sad.......
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#32]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
I have to agree with you on many points Rodney....Over on the DSSI forum we wrangled with the same subject....and wondered what would ever happen if it went pay.....I am very interested in seeing what happens here. To the point of it being worth the first $10 installment ;)
There is still a forum on delphi that mirrors the format of this forum...In fact the goal of beehive was to have it look and act like the DELPHI forums that both DSSI and EE started on. Both sites still exist and could easily be the place that people go to when the change takes place......There are all kinds of archives on both....
I have a gut feeling as you do that when it comes time to pony up, that there will be a few very active members that do so. The rest of the "lurkers" will go "lurk" somewhere else. I hope that I am proven wrong, as I enjoy this forum and want to see it succeed. Part of that success is the "free" exchange of ideas.....so I understand both sides of the issue. If it were up to me....the forum would stay the way it is.....After all....being exactly what it is.....is what makes it great.
I would suggest creating a poll as to how many people would pay for this site....you could easily take the number of views and get a percentage of theoretical success by doing some simple math.
I am not suggesting that David not move forward with this, as the results will be interesting.... I just have many reservations.
If it were up to me, I think I would work on having a tiered system like many of the photography sites do. They have a "professional" forum, and a "general" forum. The professional portion is pay, and the general is not......
Both forums happen to be active, and the free portion introduces the forum to new people on a continual basis. The biggest concern about going all pay is where will the newbies come from without some sort of free trial period or opportunity to see what all the fuss is about.....
I will miss your input if you choose to forgo the fee......I will most likely pay the fee at least once to see how things shake out.
From: JHayes55 [#33]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#27] 5 May 2006
From: sprinter [#34]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
From: mikew [#35]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
From: spudislander (WILLM) [#36]
5 May 2006
To: bruce (BBSD) [#33] 6 May 2006
First let me sincerely wish you all the best in your future endeavours with engravingetc.
I don't think I can add any more to what Rodney has stated. I do believe (hope I'm wrong) that switching to a pay site will spell the end to this great community that you have had the foresight to create.
The success of this community comes from the open (free) exchange of industry information. Any change to that formula will spoil the recipe.
I don't like to critique anybody's decisions without offering a different solution or point of view.
You are not well enough developed as an organization to become a subscription based organization (see why I'm not joining below). As for revenue creation, I believe the business model would have been to sell advertising. Charge for classified listings. Sell additional products/services that are value added to the forum.
I will not be joining the membership for the following reasons.
1. I am not paying to contribute to any forum.
2. There are not sufficient benefits to justify the cost of membership. i.e. special discounts on shipping, insurance, products, processing fees etc.
3. I believe that there will be another forum (Delphi or other) that will become what this forum is today for the free open exchange of ideas and information for this industry and related industries.
I believe that the single biggest group to benefit from these forums are newbies. They come here and elsewhere to obtain the invaluable information provided from a large base of experienced professionals. I think a subscription site will reduce both ends of this formula leaving a small core group who get enjoyment from the personal relationships that they have developed over the past years of participation. Don't be blinded by the success of this site in believing that the membership will follow you into a paid business model.
I do hope that you rethink your business model not for personal or selfish reasons but because I truly think you going down the wrong road and no matter how much determination and how much of a past trend setter you have been, once you start down this path, you may have a difficult or impossible means of returning to this point.
edited
Sorry Bruce message was for David
Will
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by WILLM
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
This forum has come out of David's pocket for a long while now. The drain must stop, in my opinion.
Selling advertising is against one of our, (moderators), rules. It makes you be wary of what you say due to money issues. That has been a long standing complaint in magazines. We will not permit that to happen here.
The only advertising allowed, and free at that, is for companies that give discounts to our members. We will do this as a service to our members, and any company that is found lacking in ethics or is giving members a problem, is GONE. We have no financial stake in them being gone, so we can do that with a clear conscience.
David has left the Delphi site in operation, but we will not have the time to moderate there. It is available to all.
There has been much talk, (privately by the moderators), about free access for a specific time for those that have an article accepted.
Rodney, all you need to do is see if the editing David did on your article is acceptable to you, (another thing magazines do not do), and you will have that time free.
Is the price right, wish I knew. We cannot grow without it and talking to other sites with contributions, they are haveing problems.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
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