Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#180]
8 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#179] 8 May 2006
I think we will have to wait a little bit for what will happen.
I just took David out to the woodshed and explained a few things.
Could not reach Takes first so I took him out alone.
Give him a few minutes to regroup. I hope we see some return to normal.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#181]
8 May 2006
To: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#176] 8 May 2006
Chuck,
I know I have been absent from much of the discussion on this subject, primarily because business has exploded over the past 30 days and I'm just scrambling to stay ahead of the deadlines. I've checked in, but didn't want to post without giving my comments some serious thought. I think I really wanted to soak everything in and make a less emotional post. Well, that's not working, here I go.
I joined this forum when it was on Delphi. My business was just coming out of its fledgling stage, with myself still having a great deal to learn to maximize the full potential of my business. I can say that this forum has, without a doubt, been the single most important resource that has contributed to the growth and success of my business. I am grateful for that.
What I am feeling right now in my gut is great sadness. Our little world here was so unique and different from any other professional forum I have ever seen. I loved this place.
I truly think there has been some division, and I don't think we will ever be able to have what we once did. I so hope I am wrong.
The number one priority for me personally is to unite the membership. I personally don't care if the free site is on Engraving Etc. or World of Engraving. I think the split of membership into two free forums is inefficient for all of us and just doesn't make sense.
The subscription website that David is proposing will have great value once it is completed. A private forum will be an important part of this so that subscribed members of the website can also discuss more openly subjects like pricing, marketing practices, etc. without worrying about the public looking in.
In hindsight, it would have been wiser to keep this forum as it is and offer the subscription to the website on its own merits. Hindsight is 20/20.
I think calm is about to fall upon us.
EDITED: 8 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#182]
9 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#181] 9 May 2006
hi David,
Are you saying that the long term plan is to have two forums? One private the other public and free?
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#183]
9 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#182] 9 May 2006
Brian,
That is what I read into David's post. I'll let him speak about the plan. I can't say either way.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#184]
9 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#183] 9 May 2006
Thanks,
I asked him myself in a subsequent post this morning.
From: BrianC (INKSQUIRTER) [#185]
9 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#183] 9 May 2006
So.............we may have to make the same post on 3 forums? Wow, I thought this was time consuming before! :'-(
It's already hard enough to get any work done.....oh ya, it would help if I stayed off the golf course.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#186]
9 May 2006
To: BrianC (INKSQUIRTER) [#185] 9 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#187]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65] 9 May 2006
Dave, Brudda,
I have only read 72 posts in this thread as of this writing but here's my gut feeling.
I, like most here, appreciate everything you do for hosting a forum where businesspeople can gain information to improve their businesses. This also applies to Cherie Derrick at DSSI. But I am having a problem with this site going subscription.
Its not that a dime, a quarter or dollar a day is too much, its the nature of the world wide web. We are accustomed to the free exchange of ideas and banter online. And lets face it, a lot of what goes down on these lists is chit-chat, not ground breaking technical or business inovation.
I for one would like you to adopt a model where you accept advertising instead of charging an annual fee. I think the rank and file would relate to that better.
There is/was a teriffic photo site I used to visit daily, the Rob Galbraith Forum. Most members were serious professionals, not wannabee flamers like on some photo sites. But it recently sold and is now a membership fee list. Will I subscribe? Probably not. It just doesn't seem right after so many years of visiting the free site. And maybe in the final analysis that's it really, changing midstream from free to fee. If you were just starting up perhaps the perception of a subscription fee would be different.
Just my 2 cents and we all know how much that is worth.....
From: Shaddy [#188]
9 May 2006
To: ALL
If I may weigh in... I don't believe their intention ever was to just make us pay to use the forum. As in, leave things just like this and just start making us pay. I believe they have much grander things in mind, the logo's just being part of it. I think a "wait and see" attitude should be observed until we can see what they have in mind before jumping to too many conclusions. Heck, just hang out at the free forums (or stay here since he already said he was going to leave the forum portion free) and pay the 10 dollars when it's time to see if you want to pay for a years worth. No one ever said it's a year or nothing.
I'm pretty curious, so I'll pay 10 bucks to see what's what. If it doesn't appeal to me as a laser hobbiest, then I'll let it lapse.
PS... stock logos and art was one of the suggestions made in one of the other threads a while back. I for one would like to see them. Not just logos, but stock art like a greyscale winter wolf, horse, barn, creek...
PPS... he only offered to delete posts to those that didn't want them on the pay site, was never a threat, he even said he didn't want to.
THat's about it...
Shaddy
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#189]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#187] 9 May 2006
You may have just thrown that in, but it is a mouthful.
I believe that it is one of the main drawbacks that is causing the most dissension.
The web is an information highway, not a free highway. Absolute proof of that is what you pay for access to the web. DSL is $20-$30 per month. If you have a website, you pay for hosting, not a person does any real work for those fees.
We have been free since the inception of EE. Now that free cookie is going to go away. I remember those thoughts and feelings when DSSI was planning on going to become subscription. It took a long to make the decision that I was going to join the subscription site. It is amazing how fresh that is in my mind during these discussions.
Some of the things in the works require money, not out of David's pocket. Some equipment, but probably most of the money for some professionals to do some of the work. When the time comes to get sections under way we will probably give members who do that type of work the first grab at it, for a reasonable wage. I am not talking about designing a web page, I am talking about many hours of nitty-gritty sort of post production work, necessarily left to professionals in those fields.
Part of the vision is to make this a school for our field along with the instant help. School in equipment is good, but also in marketing, (first test of that has been done and posted), products, and general information that can not be found anywhere on a single site, (some not available anywhere).
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#190]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#187] 9 May 2006
The concept of starting a pay site, from scratch, would have never flown. There's never a guarantee that any forum will fly, regardless of its cost or absence of cost.
I suspect more people are opposed to a pay site, based on principle, rather than outrage at the proposed subscription.
I suspect the reaction would have been just as acrid, at any price.
I can understand people acting on principle alone.
I took a stand, that I'd never become a full-fledged member of the ARA, simply because they have no mechanism of addressing grievances, between their members.
A one-issue deal-breaker.
Does that mean I think the ARA isn't a good organization?
No. I attend the ARA Las Vegas show, religiously, as a paid attendee.
With me, it's matter of principle.
I think the same attitude applies to people who are opposed to the change we're about to undergo; and I respect that.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#191]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#189] 9 May 2006
The web is an information highway Harvey, not an information tollway for the most part. I didn't just throw that statement in.
I for one would be glad to pay $99/year just to keep up with David and you, but how many Newbies, hobbyists, non-professionals will? Aren't they the core of an ever expanding client base you need to cultivate into the future? Newbies become pro in fairly quick order.
I know I'm probably missing something here as I've never hosted a public chat list web site, but couldn't you generate as much income off advertising as charging a subscription fee?
Let's think about that. Maybe I'm wrong. Let's guess that you have 1000 members who would pay you $100/year. $100,000. Maybe online advertising isn't quite that lucrative, I have no worldly idea how that works. Probably hits per day or some such esoteric thing. And then maybe there are additional charges you have planned for CDs, online training, special events that can't be accomodated on a free site subsidized by advertisement. Pure guess.
Its just my gut feeling that after 6-12 months your core will shrink slightly and then stabalize at around 80% of today's free membership. But you won't be adding many new members especially if they find another free forum, no matter how good or bad that forum is.
Pure speculation on my part.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#192]
9 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#190] 9 May 2006
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#193]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#192] 9 May 2006
I'm saying some people, on a matter of principle alone, see the subscription site as a one-issue deal-breaker.
I was also saying, I can relate to that attitude, due to my stance with ARA membership.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#194]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#191] 9 May 2006
If we retain 80% of our membership you can bet your donkey the rates will drop considerably. If not we will have perks that we never dreamed of or thought about at this point. Nope I think they would drop instead.
For those who do not believe that I would be very happy to split it with the other two moderators of this forum.
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#195]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#194] 9 May 2006
I wish you both well. You have a good thing going here. I was just interested in subscription versus advertisement as a way to keep it all afloat. Still not clear as to your decision but its none of my business really.
I have no problem with generating as much income as you can. You have the right and obligation to max that in any way you can for your partners.
btw, who's the third moderator?
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by BIGPIXEL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#196]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#195] 9 May 2006
What I attempted to say was that we are not looking to make any money off the site. Nearly all to be plowed back in.
Not aimed at you, but some other people cannot believe that. Their loss.
EDITED: 9 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#197]
9 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#196] 9 May 2006
From: UncleSteve [#198]
9 May 2006
To: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#197] 9 May 2006
From: Mike (BIGPIXEL) [#199]
9 May 2006
To: UncleSteve [#198] 9 May 2006
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