Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: bruce (BBSD) [#31]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
I agree with with you Rodney. They are acting like the Bank ATM's - free until they got you, then wham pay to use.
$99/yr is too much. I feel you will lose many.
The users of this free forum have contributed freely. We sell nothing to the others within it.
This is a great forum. Its too sad.......
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#32]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
I have to agree with you on many points Rodney....Over on the DSSI forum we wrangled with the same subject....and wondered what would ever happen if it went pay.....I am very interested in seeing what happens here. To the point of it being worth the first $10 installment ;)
There is still a forum on delphi that mirrors the format of this forum...In fact the goal of beehive was to have it look and act like the DELPHI forums that both DSSI and EE started on. Both sites still exist and could easily be the place that people go to when the change takes place......There are all kinds of archives on both....
I have a gut feeling as you do that when it comes time to pony up, that there will be a few very active members that do so. The rest of the "lurkers" will go "lurk" somewhere else. I hope that I am proven wrong, as I enjoy this forum and want to see it succeed. Part of that success is the "free" exchange of ideas.....so I understand both sides of the issue. If it were up to me....the forum would stay the way it is.....After all....being exactly what it is.....is what makes it great.
I would suggest creating a poll as to how many people would pay for this site....you could easily take the number of views and get a percentage of theoretical success by doing some simple math.
I am not suggesting that David not move forward with this, as the results will be interesting.... I just have many reservations.
If it were up to me, I think I would work on having a tiered system like many of the photography sites do. They have a "professional" forum, and a "general" forum. The professional portion is pay, and the general is not......
Both forums happen to be active, and the free portion introduces the forum to new people on a continual basis. The biggest concern about going all pay is where will the newbies come from without some sort of free trial period or opportunity to see what all the fuss is about.....
I will miss your input if you choose to forgo the fee......I will most likely pay the fee at least once to see how things shake out.
From: JHayes55 [#33]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#27] 5 May 2006
From: sprinter [#34]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
From: mikew [#35]
5 May 2006
To: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#29] 5 May 2006
From: spudislander (WILLM) [#36]
5 May 2006
To: bruce (BBSD) [#33] 6 May 2006
First let me sincerely wish you all the best in your future endeavours with engravingetc.
I don't think I can add any more to what Rodney has stated. I do believe (hope I'm wrong) that switching to a pay site will spell the end to this great community that you have had the foresight to create.
The success of this community comes from the open (free) exchange of industry information. Any change to that formula will spoil the recipe.
I don't like to critique anybody's decisions without offering a different solution or point of view.
You are not well enough developed as an organization to become a subscription based organization (see why I'm not joining below). As for revenue creation, I believe the business model would have been to sell advertising. Charge for classified listings. Sell additional products/services that are value added to the forum.
I will not be joining the membership for the following reasons.
1. I am not paying to contribute to any forum.
2. There are not sufficient benefits to justify the cost of membership. i.e. special discounts on shipping, insurance, products, processing fees etc.
3. I believe that there will be another forum (Delphi or other) that will become what this forum is today for the free open exchange of ideas and information for this industry and related industries.
I believe that the single biggest group to benefit from these forums are newbies. They come here and elsewhere to obtain the invaluable information provided from a large base of experienced professionals. I think a subscription site will reduce both ends of this formula leaving a small core group who get enjoyment from the personal relationships that they have developed over the past years of participation. Don't be blinded by the success of this site in believing that the membership will follow you into a paid business model.
I do hope that you rethink your business model not for personal or selfish reasons but because I truly think you going down the wrong road and no matter how much determination and how much of a past trend setter you have been, once you start down this path, you may have a difficult or impossible means of returning to this point.
edited
Sorry Bruce message was for David
Will
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by WILLM
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
This forum has come out of David's pocket for a long while now. The drain must stop, in my opinion.
Selling advertising is against one of our, (moderators), rules. It makes you be wary of what you say due to money issues. That has been a long standing complaint in magazines. We will not permit that to happen here.
The only advertising allowed, and free at that, is for companies that give discounts to our members. We will do this as a service to our members, and any company that is found lacking in ethics or is giving members a problem, is GONE. We have no financial stake in them being gone, so we can do that with a clear conscience.
David has left the Delphi site in operation, but we will not have the time to moderate there. It is available to all.
There has been much talk, (privately by the moderators), about free access for a specific time for those that have an article accepted.
Rodney, all you need to do is see if the editing David did on your article is acceptable to you, (another thing magazines do not do), and you will have that time free.
Is the price right, wish I knew. We cannot grow without it and talking to other sites with contributions, they are haveing problems.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Mike (SPACE_ENGRAVERS) [#38]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
All,
I'm one of the newbies that have gotten tons of advise and help from this forum...would I pay for it? Probably, but at the same time I would be looking for the new ones that pop up. If I found a free one that had the same level of experience, then I would go with it...I'm a new business with all the new business expenses and the added expense of this, no matter how small, shows in my pocket book. But like I said, I'd probably pay because of the experience level of the people here and the help I've recieved.
However, I would have to wonder if I'd be willing to pay if I were the experienced one. Seems like there are some people here that don't ever really ask questions but they sure do answer a lot. If I were one of those, would I be willing to pay to be giving advise? It would be like going to Microsoft and saying, "I've been working with your product for 20 years. I'll pay you XX dollars to become one of your tech support and you don't have to pay me anything." I'm just afraid that a lot of the experience will leave the board because of that reason. And that's the whole reason I'm here...
Just my two cents (worth about .5 cents)
Mike
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
On the issue of archived posts, if it becomes a bone of contention, which seems inevitable, I have no problem making them "viewable" to the public.
There will be plenty more, where they came from.
The ability of people to make judgements, based on assumption, is nothing new.
Most are assuming this site will remain exactly as it is now. It won't.
I've never made a good follower (probably never will) and the idea of this site becoming a poor replica of anything in existence, holds no appeal.
Naturally, that won't prevent other sites from popping up, attempting to emulate this one and I truly wish them the best. I really do.
My only regret, is that I've run the site, for the past six years, with the parking brake on.
Oh, and there's no need to take a poll. The results are already in:
1) Some will join a pay site.
2) Others won't.
I'll continue to cater to those who will.
All the best,
From: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#40]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 5 May 2006
This forum has come out of David's pocket for a long while now. The drain must stop, in my opinion.
I have no argument that this forum should not be a burden on David or any other small group (possible the moderators). I also agree in principle regarding advertising...even though I might have considered doing so.
I think that Sawmill Creek is a great example of how the forum can remain free to those that do not wish to pay and not a financial burden. They let it be known that they needed money help or they would go down. Within days, money was pouring in with no set contribution amount, give what you wished. They collected enough to cover operations for well over a year, and some equipment upgrades. This year it was again mentioned that it was a member supported forum and money has been going into the kitty to continue it's operation.
I think the real issue here comes in David's statement that he feels that it is time that he move from full time engraving to more educational. (I know David, not exactly what you said)... it feels like this is designed to become an income flow for David and I assume the moderators. Members are largely the value of this site and you will lose many of the active contributors under this current plan.
I'm not a active contributor since I know squat about engraving so I'm sure I won't be missed, but, absent I will be under this new plan.
Doug
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#41]
5 May 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#40] 5 May 2006
Yes that statement of David's does look like what you said, only the moderator's discussions allow me to know that it is not what was meant.
David will remain the Stunt Engraver for income, as I will remain an engraving business.
The money will mainly be used for enhancements and new avenues in the forum. Maybe forum is the wrong word, it is intended to become an educational site for the industry. We do not want to replace other education, such as magazines, just to augment them in new ways. David's vision exceeds mine in that respect by far. There may be some funds used for workers and articles, but that is at the bottom of the list of where they will go. It all depends on the amount generated for this site.
We know it has some risk, but hope that it is not for the members. This has never been done in this industry and we have tried to learn from other industries. Whenever something new is done, there is always risk. We just hope the rewards to our members will outweigh the risk we are taking.
We have thrown around ideas for almost two years to get to this point, PM's, emails, phone calls. We were really doing a lot of homework and idea bashing. I am amazed that the two Davids and I are still the fast friends that we were when it began. What you will see is the beginnings of the consensus we have hammered out.
We welcome all suggestions to improvements as we go. 1200 minds are better than three.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#42]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39] 5 May 2006
David , imho , you will have wrecked this forum with your fly in face of what anyone else says attitude. You have recieved a whole host of replies that indicate the subs or the level of them are unnaceptable.
I know you own the forum , but many of us have contributed to it's success and we deserve some say and consideration - you have effectively in your last post said to us to get stuffed cos you are doing it your way and it does not matter what anyone says!!
You are also winging it as you go , what with the new format and assumption thing thing - if you do have anything that will lure us and others to pay up your sleeve publicise it!!!
I thank you for hosting the old forum , however I think you are screwing the willing participants here in launching the new one. You have used us to build to this point and now we have no say at all - what a load of rot!!!!
Harvey - why should I spend any time checking anything at all if it's now going to be used to generate income when it was given free.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by RODNEY_GOLD
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#43]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 5 May 2006
Harvey,
This site has grown without the fee for the last two years...What makes you think it will stop growing if it doesn't go pay?
From: EncompassTech [#44]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 5 May 2006
You knew I couldn't stay quiet in this one, didn't you Harvey? B-)
What is happening to this forum is of great interest to me since I have helped David grow from the ground up but I can't sit by without adding my 2 cents.
If the advertisers know up front that you will not allow their money to influence how you run the site or the forum then that isn't a problem. It's only the people who allow that revenue to influence how things are run that cause the problem.
Also, if David allows money to influence what he says then he should also not be accepting any type of discounts, free samples, free equipment, free trials, favors etc. of any type as those can also just as easily make him biased.
I do have to agree with Rodney, the information currently on this forum was given freely and should still be accessible by anyone for free, should be removed completely or the members that contributed should be paid for their knowledge.
As for contributions (others have mentioned), I noticed during our upgrade last week that Beehive developers have been accepting donations since early 2005. I had asked about it when we first setup the software for DSSI and EE but they did not accept donations at that time. Well anyway, I donated to them today. What I found out was, out of the several hundred (maybe 1000) people who are using their software 4 others have donated in the last 1.5 years. This software is worth a lot of money. If you bought this from the Delphi people it is over $10,000 for under 100 user license plus a yearly maintenance fee of over $2500 (at least that's what it used to be). I absolutely couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that there has been so few donations to something so valuable to so many forum owners.
I have no doubt the 3 of you have worked very hard at ironing out all of the issues associated with taking engravingetc. the direction you are and I commend you for your efforts. Besides that, all I can say is Good Luck! :-)
Sincerely,
Cherie
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by ENCOMPASSTECH
From: Zonas [#45]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#41] 5 May 2006
Not just for Harvey, but all moderators:
Maybe I'm a 'little touchy' right now as I'm preparing for an audit, but I want to know will members receive financial statements when we go paid subscription? Will we see where the money is actually going? I know you three have put many hours into this forum, and we all appreciate it, but if you are going to receive any type of salary, I think the subscribers should be able to see when and how much.
I am not against paying to maintain the forum (i.e. domain fees, site fees, etc.), but don't feel we need $99.00 per year per member to do so. Think how many don't join ARA because of the cost. I enjoy the forum and have gained friends and assistance many times. If I had to make a discission today, I would probably only pay one month and see who stays with the forum, as there are several I respect and trust their knowledge. There are others that just like write........and it takes to long to find the answer, if any. I personally don't want articles (that's why there is all the trade magazines that I can never find time to read), I prefer ask a question, get a quick response, I don't have time to read all the postings now let alone long articles.
For example I haven't been on for weeks, and just discovered this thread, so 22 cents a day would have been wasted, if I was paying. Hopefully when it becomes offical paid subscription an email could be sent to members letting us know we only have 2 weeks to decide. Not requiring us search through this thread or others to discover it.
Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#46]
5 May 2006
To: EncompassTech [#44] 5 May 2006
There lies the problem with donations.
I, (and we), thank you for that, sincerely.
From: EncompassTech [#47]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26] 5 May 2006
You're kidding, aren't you?
You are saying a lurker is going pay you to come out and tell the "go getters" of the industry all of their secrets? Personally this would be the last place I would be willing share information. I would be expecting to get more information as a lurker now that I have to pay to lurk. :S
I don't deny you should make some money for running the site/forum but don't expect someone to help you more when they have to pay you to help. Actually that's one of the reasons I moved away from Delphi... they were making us, the people who run the forums, pay more for the privilege of making them money by getting them more memberships. Sorry but that idea didn' t float my boat there/then and I would be surprised if it floats anyones boat here either. :P
Good luck.
Cherie
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by ENCOMPASSTECH
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39] 5 May 2006
David, I know you've been thinking this through for a long time and have come to the point where you feel you need to push ahead with it. So probably opinions at this point won't get you to change your mind. But I thought I'd throw out a few points from a newbie perspective.
This forum has been valuable to me. I have learned a lot here in the past couple of months, and even made the connection (indirectly) with the person I bought my laser engraver from. Looking back on it, did it provide me enough to make it worth paying for a membership? Yes. At least it did in my case.
But when I first arrived here, if the forums were for paid members only, there's little chance I would have paid to join. Even with a lot of other features available, such as tutorials and discounts with specific suppliers.
There are so many forums on the web, and so few of them have a friendly atmosphere that you can not tell what a forum is going to be like without experiencing that particular forum first hand for a few weeks. There are tons of sites that promise the world, but once you pay your membership you realize that their perception of what you would get doesn't match your own.
I think this is going to be a problem for you with getting new members. Some may join based on the suggestion of existing members, but most that stumble across it on the web won't. It's not that $100 per year is all that much money. It's that the perception of what you get when you aren't already a part of it makes it seem very expensive.
Your membership breaks down into several groups. The newbies that need the most help, and would get the most advantage of the expertise offered here, but with little experience may not be convinced they'll get that much more here for a fee than they'd get elsewhere for free. So you'll lose many of them. Then there's the old hands that have been here through all the versions of the forum. They don't have as much to learn but value the company of others here. Some will stay and some will go. Then there's the large middle ground. People that are past newbies, but mostly read the forums to pick up the occasional tidbit of advice or new direction to explore. Many of them won't see those tidbits as being worth the money, so you'll lose a large number of them.
Of the experts that hang out, some of them that have the potential to make money off of members will stay for business reasons, but others that are here simply to help others and give free advice will move on to a free forum.
Forums to me seem a great way of creating and maintaining a community. I've been a member of forums since the 1980s, back when BIX (run by Byte magazine) was the biggest thing out there. I've been a moderator on forums at Compuserve, Adobe, CafePress, and others.
To me it seems that a successful, and profitable site can be built around free forums, which bring in and build the community, who then spends money on other features that are not free. If newbies find a free forum with lots of help and then discover that for only $5 a pop they can download tutorials relating to what they want to do, you'll get lots of them spending their money. There are lots of other ways of adding revenue generators to a site, including services, seminars, or tie-ins with distributors (buy products using a coupon code and get 5% off while the site gets a 5% sales commission)
A few other random thoughts (this post is already waaay too long):
I assume you realize that if your system says 1200 people have joined, that you don't think there's anywhere near that number of "real" members. If your software can give you stats, see how many have logged in during the past month or two, and subtract from that the number that have joined in that amount of time. That's a more realistic number of real members. Figure that you may lose 60% of those in this move and that will give you an idea of the true size the site will be 40 days or so from now.
Just some thoughts, and not trying to put you on the defensive. I know you're suddenly under a lot of pressure that you weren't expecting to hit you so suddenly.
EDIT: oops, spelled your name wrong, which isn't easy since it's my name too. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DAVERJ
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49]
5 May 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48] 5 May 2006
I, (I think I can probably say 'we' with no worries), thank you for your thoughts. You did come up with one or two that we did not look into. Just wish we had that information a year earlier.
Personal thoughts on the idea of getting a kickback from advertisers, although it could be looked at as advertising dollars with no strings attached, still feels like a kickback to me.
We do not want to feed on our members, that is what that feels like to me.
We do not want to promise the world, only to deliver it. :O
The problem of new members has been discussed ad infinitum. Closer to ad nauseam.
We hope we have part of that solved.
We are working out a few kinks to still have some content free. Some are wild programming nightmares, which will have to be redone when we upgrade software. (We did not go to version .6 due to a bug laden search feature. We feel that a good search is a necessity.)
When the free content is decided, partially on if it is programmable, David will announce it. We do not want to lock people out, just cover bills and enhance what is here.
In the last few days some ideas have come up that need to be researched to have a more informative forum than it is now. They will probably be integrated when the research is done. Some may not pan out so I will not announce vaporware here.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
Zona,
I will remain an assistant moderator of the subscription site, will not accept any income or salary, and have actually planned on paying David, unknowingly, for a subscription to the site. This should answer where I stand on the issue of it ever becoming a big source of income for me. Another job is something I don't need right now. I'm thoroughly enjoying the one I've got. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DATAKES
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