Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#41]
5 May 2006
To: Doug (JDOUG5170) [#40] 5 May 2006
Yes that statement of David's does look like what you said, only the moderator's discussions allow me to know that it is not what was meant.
David will remain the Stunt Engraver for income, as I will remain an engraving business.
The money will mainly be used for enhancements and new avenues in the forum. Maybe forum is the wrong word, it is intended to become an educational site for the industry. We do not want to replace other education, such as magazines, just to augment them in new ways. David's vision exceeds mine in that respect by far. There may be some funds used for workers and articles, but that is at the bottom of the list of where they will go. It all depends on the amount generated for this site.
We know it has some risk, but hope that it is not for the members. This has never been done in this industry and we have tried to learn from other industries. Whenever something new is done, there is always risk. We just hope the rewards to our members will outweigh the risk we are taking.
We have thrown around ideas for almost two years to get to this point, PM's, emails, phone calls. We were really doing a lot of homework and idea bashing. I am amazed that the two Davids and I are still the fast friends that we were when it began. What you will see is the beginnings of the consensus we have hammered out.
We welcome all suggestions to improvements as we go. 1200 minds are better than three.
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#42]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39] 5 May 2006
David , imho , you will have wrecked this forum with your fly in face of what anyone else says attitude. You have recieved a whole host of replies that indicate the subs or the level of them are unnaceptable.
I know you own the forum , but many of us have contributed to it's success and we deserve some say and consideration - you have effectively in your last post said to us to get stuffed cos you are doing it your way and it does not matter what anyone says!!
You are also winging it as you go , what with the new format and assumption thing thing - if you do have anything that will lure us and others to pay up your sleeve publicise it!!!
I thank you for hosting the old forum , however I think you are screwing the willing participants here in launching the new one. You have used us to build to this point and now we have no say at all - what a load of rot!!!!
Harvey - why should I spend any time checking anything at all if it's now going to be used to generate income when it was given free.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by RODNEY_GOLD
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#43]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 5 May 2006
Harvey,
This site has grown without the fee for the last two years...What makes you think it will stop growing if it doesn't go pay?
From: EncompassTech [#44]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37] 5 May 2006
You knew I couldn't stay quiet in this one, didn't you Harvey? B-)
What is happening to this forum is of great interest to me since I have helped David grow from the ground up but I can't sit by without adding my 2 cents.
If the advertisers know up front that you will not allow their money to influence how you run the site or the forum then that isn't a problem. It's only the people who allow that revenue to influence how things are run that cause the problem.
Also, if David allows money to influence what he says then he should also not be accepting any type of discounts, free samples, free equipment, free trials, favors etc. of any type as those can also just as easily make him biased.
I do have to agree with Rodney, the information currently on this forum was given freely and should still be accessible by anyone for free, should be removed completely or the members that contributed should be paid for their knowledge.
As for contributions (others have mentioned), I noticed during our upgrade last week that Beehive developers have been accepting donations since early 2005. I had asked about it when we first setup the software for DSSI and EE but they did not accept donations at that time. Well anyway, I donated to them today. What I found out was, out of the several hundred (maybe 1000) people who are using their software 4 others have donated in the last 1.5 years. This software is worth a lot of money. If you bought this from the Delphi people it is over $10,000 for under 100 user license plus a yearly maintenance fee of over $2500 (at least that's what it used to be). I absolutely couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that there has been so few donations to something so valuable to so many forum owners.
I have no doubt the 3 of you have worked very hard at ironing out all of the issues associated with taking engravingetc. the direction you are and I commend you for your efforts. Besides that, all I can say is Good Luck! :-)
Sincerely,
Cherie
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by ENCOMPASSTECH
From: Zonas [#45]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#41] 5 May 2006
Not just for Harvey, but all moderators:
Maybe I'm a 'little touchy' right now as I'm preparing for an audit, but I want to know will members receive financial statements when we go paid subscription? Will we see where the money is actually going? I know you three have put many hours into this forum, and we all appreciate it, but if you are going to receive any type of salary, I think the subscribers should be able to see when and how much.
I am not against paying to maintain the forum (i.e. domain fees, site fees, etc.), but don't feel we need $99.00 per year per member to do so. Think how many don't join ARA because of the cost. I enjoy the forum and have gained friends and assistance many times. If I had to make a discission today, I would probably only pay one month and see who stays with the forum, as there are several I respect and trust their knowledge. There are others that just like write........and it takes to long to find the answer, if any. I personally don't want articles (that's why there is all the trade magazines that I can never find time to read), I prefer ask a question, get a quick response, I don't have time to read all the postings now let alone long articles.
For example I haven't been on for weeks, and just discovered this thread, so 22 cents a day would have been wasted, if I was paying. Hopefully when it becomes offical paid subscription an email could be sent to members letting us know we only have 2 weeks to decide. Not requiring us search through this thread or others to discover it.
Zona
Zona's Engraved Creations
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#46]
5 May 2006
To: EncompassTech [#44] 5 May 2006
There lies the problem with donations.
I, (and we), thank you for that, sincerely.
From: EncompassTech [#47]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#26] 5 May 2006
You're kidding, aren't you?
You are saying a lurker is going pay you to come out and tell the "go getters" of the industry all of their secrets? Personally this would be the last place I would be willing share information. I would be expecting to get more information as a lurker now that I have to pay to lurk. :S
I don't deny you should make some money for running the site/forum but don't expect someone to help you more when they have to pay you to help. Actually that's one of the reasons I moved away from Delphi... they were making us, the people who run the forums, pay more for the privilege of making them money by getting them more memberships. Sorry but that idea didn' t float my boat there/then and I would be surprised if it floats anyones boat here either. :P
Good luck.
Cherie
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by ENCOMPASSTECH
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39] 5 May 2006
David, I know you've been thinking this through for a long time and have come to the point where you feel you need to push ahead with it. So probably opinions at this point won't get you to change your mind. But I thought I'd throw out a few points from a newbie perspective.
This forum has been valuable to me. I have learned a lot here in the past couple of months, and even made the connection (indirectly) with the person I bought my laser engraver from. Looking back on it, did it provide me enough to make it worth paying for a membership? Yes. At least it did in my case.
But when I first arrived here, if the forums were for paid members only, there's little chance I would have paid to join. Even with a lot of other features available, such as tutorials and discounts with specific suppliers.
There are so many forums on the web, and so few of them have a friendly atmosphere that you can not tell what a forum is going to be like without experiencing that particular forum first hand for a few weeks. There are tons of sites that promise the world, but once you pay your membership you realize that their perception of what you would get doesn't match your own.
I think this is going to be a problem for you with getting new members. Some may join based on the suggestion of existing members, but most that stumble across it on the web won't. It's not that $100 per year is all that much money. It's that the perception of what you get when you aren't already a part of it makes it seem very expensive.
Your membership breaks down into several groups. The newbies that need the most help, and would get the most advantage of the expertise offered here, but with little experience may not be convinced they'll get that much more here for a fee than they'd get elsewhere for free. So you'll lose many of them. Then there's the old hands that have been here through all the versions of the forum. They don't have as much to learn but value the company of others here. Some will stay and some will go. Then there's the large middle ground. People that are past newbies, but mostly read the forums to pick up the occasional tidbit of advice or new direction to explore. Many of them won't see those tidbits as being worth the money, so you'll lose a large number of them.
Of the experts that hang out, some of them that have the potential to make money off of members will stay for business reasons, but others that are here simply to help others and give free advice will move on to a free forum.
Forums to me seem a great way of creating and maintaining a community. I've been a member of forums since the 1980s, back when BIX (run by Byte magazine) was the biggest thing out there. I've been a moderator on forums at Compuserve, Adobe, CafePress, and others.
To me it seems that a successful, and profitable site can be built around free forums, which bring in and build the community, who then spends money on other features that are not free. If newbies find a free forum with lots of help and then discover that for only $5 a pop they can download tutorials relating to what they want to do, you'll get lots of them spending their money. There are lots of other ways of adding revenue generators to a site, including services, seminars, or tie-ins with distributors (buy products using a coupon code and get 5% off while the site gets a 5% sales commission)
A few other random thoughts (this post is already waaay too long):
I assume you realize that if your system says 1200 people have joined, that you don't think there's anywhere near that number of "real" members. If your software can give you stats, see how many have logged in during the past month or two, and subtract from that the number that have joined in that amount of time. That's a more realistic number of real members. Figure that you may lose 60% of those in this move and that will give you an idea of the true size the site will be 40 days or so from now.
Just some thoughts, and not trying to put you on the defensive. I know you're suddenly under a lot of pressure that you weren't expecting to hit you so suddenly.
EDIT: oops, spelled your name wrong, which isn't easy since it's my name too. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DAVERJ
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49]
5 May 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48] 5 May 2006
I, (I think I can probably say 'we' with no worries), thank you for your thoughts. You did come up with one or two that we did not look into. Just wish we had that information a year earlier.
Personal thoughts on the idea of getting a kickback from advertisers, although it could be looked at as advertising dollars with no strings attached, still feels like a kickback to me.
We do not want to feed on our members, that is what that feels like to me.
We do not want to promise the world, only to deliver it. :O
The problem of new members has been discussed ad infinitum. Closer to ad nauseam.
We hope we have part of that solved.
We are working out a few kinks to still have some content free. Some are wild programming nightmares, which will have to be redone when we upgrade software. (We did not go to version .6 due to a bug laden search feature. We feel that a good search is a necessity.)
When the free content is decided, partially on if it is programmable, David will announce it. We do not want to lock people out, just cover bills and enhance what is here.
In the last few days some ideas have come up that need to be researched to have a more informative forum than it is now. They will probably be integrated when the research is done. Some may not pan out so I will not announce vaporware here.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
Zona,
I will remain an assistant moderator of the subscription site, will not accept any income or salary, and have actually planned on paying David, unknowingly, for a subscription to the site. This should answer where I stand on the issue of it ever becoming a big source of income for me. Another job is something I don't need right now. I'm thoroughly enjoying the one I've got. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#51]
5 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50] 5 May 2006
And David L. does not want to be paid back for his layouts for hosting and the programing fees. Does that tell you where we stand?
My opinion is that David L. is going to get payback if I have to ram it down his throat, which may be necessary.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#52]
5 May 2006
To: EncompassTech [#47] 5 May 2006
Cherie,
I can only speak for myself. Never have I ever considered anything I do here as helping David (sorry David). I've always done it in the spirit of kindness, helping peers to better themselves and their operations in the awards and engraving industry. I've been very fortunate to learn alot in return at the same time. You see, that is how kindness works.
The fact that a subscription fee will be charged does not change anything, but what it does do is provide me with a business tool that is great to begin with, but now has the opportunity to become just part of something that is even more valuable. I'm willing to invest some modest dollars in that future.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: UncleSteve [#53]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#34] 5 May 2006
While I understand and respect your choice to not become a paid member, I highly question your ethics in trying to promote another forum here. :-(
Perhaps you would like to become a paid advertiser for your "free" forum... Ooops, that would also make you a paid member! >.<
From: sprinter [#54]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49] 5 May 2006
So far I'm seeing more "Time to move on" comments than "where do I make my payment to" comments.
You keep talking about covering costs, just one member would pay for your hosting costs. Be honest about it, someone is going to be making some money, I have nothing against someone trying to make a buck, but stop blowing smoke for the reason this site is going to be a pay site.
You also keep mentioning programming cost, if you would change to a more robust forum software package you wouldn't have those costs. YaBB and phpBB already have most of the features you have mentioned and they are also free just like Beehive.
I would be willing to make a donation, but not $10 per month your asking for membership.
From: UncleSteve [#55]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
If you paid for a year at a time at full fee ($99), it is only about $8.50/month
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
I guess you will not be here as the smoke starts to clear, too bad. That is meant seriously, not as an insult.
Really good programmers are not cheap, they want to earn a living.
You have no idea as to what is intended, so have no idea of costs. The one blowing smoke just shifted.
We tried other premium software at one point, the members thought it was awful compared to this software, so we returned. I was very happy about the return. We tried and learned.
There are things that have been done to improve the forum that most do not see, and some notice only a little, because the enhancements went so naturally. There was a bad flicker when posting a message from a Mac. Most did not see that, but it cost a bit to find what caused it and correct it.
Many things that you do not know, nor have any need to know. But they just are.
I hate when someone says trust me, but that is all I can say at the moment unless you want to volunteer to be on the board of directors, and there is an opening.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: sprinter [#57]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
I really do wish you guys well and hope it works out. But it looks to be all up hill.
Thanks for the board offer, but I think to be asked to join Bush's
cabinet or staff would be a more secure position to be in.
From: Peter [#58]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
"Oh Dear" said Ee ore........
"Oh Dear" said Tigger......
They then all hugged each other, looked over their shoulders and in the most glum of faces, all said together...
"Oh Dear"
:-( :-(
From: mikew [#59]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
Why reinvent the wheel or for that matter try to get members to pay to reinvent it. Take Vbulletin for example, SMC has been using it for years now and it runs great! It can be purchased outright for $160, then all you have are the bandwidth cost.
As far as bugs every program has them whether you build it yourself or purchase one ready to go.
From: precisionlaser [#60]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
I understand that David and the other moderators run the site, but it strikes me that this site doesn't belong to any one person (I understand that David L may disagree with me), because I'd bet that if you added up all of the freely given information and advice, you'd find that by and large, it doesn't come from those who would collect the cash and control the site.
I certainly understand that the moderators spend a LOT of time managing the site and policing the posts...and they've done a magnificent job of this. I know I wouldn't have time or expertise to do the same job they've done. I also understand that it takes money to host and maintain a site with this much content. But...something about this plan is definitely off putting to me. Perhaps it's the idea that taking a community meeting place such as this and turning it into a place where you have to pay to play seems wrong to me. Imagine the town square where people come to gather, talk, share and have a good time, and then putting a ticket booth there...pay or walk away? I'm sure those people would have no problems at all contributing either in cash or in kind (host the site, offer disk space, program changes) ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS to make sure that their community meeting place stayed well maintained. I know I'd have no problem with this idea, but pay for access when the vast majority of the content is provided by those who would have to pay to provide the content?
My unsolicited opinion is that this should have been handled in a community discussion and from the point of view that contributions are necessary to defray the costs of running the site. I'm sure that most wouldn't have a problem with a reasonable stipend for the moderators in return for the amazing amount of time they put in. After all, our community discussions wouldn't be possible without all of the behind the scenes work they do. People contributing to make sure that something they like is continued, with their consent, in a positive environment...instead of a "my way or the highway", "here's what we're gonna do" approach.
I don't think it's too late to back up and handle this in a different way...
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