Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48]
5 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#39] 5 May 2006
David, I know you've been thinking this through for a long time and have come to the point where you feel you need to push ahead with it. So probably opinions at this point won't get you to change your mind. But I thought I'd throw out a few points from a newbie perspective.
This forum has been valuable to me. I have learned a lot here in the past couple of months, and even made the connection (indirectly) with the person I bought my laser engraver from. Looking back on it, did it provide me enough to make it worth paying for a membership? Yes. At least it did in my case.
But when I first arrived here, if the forums were for paid members only, there's little chance I would have paid to join. Even with a lot of other features available, such as tutorials and discounts with specific suppliers.
There are so many forums on the web, and so few of them have a friendly atmosphere that you can not tell what a forum is going to be like without experiencing that particular forum first hand for a few weeks. There are tons of sites that promise the world, but once you pay your membership you realize that their perception of what you would get doesn't match your own.
I think this is going to be a problem for you with getting new members. Some may join based on the suggestion of existing members, but most that stumble across it on the web won't. It's not that $100 per year is all that much money. It's that the perception of what you get when you aren't already a part of it makes it seem very expensive.
Your membership breaks down into several groups. The newbies that need the most help, and would get the most advantage of the expertise offered here, but with little experience may not be convinced they'll get that much more here for a fee than they'd get elsewhere for free. So you'll lose many of them. Then there's the old hands that have been here through all the versions of the forum. They don't have as much to learn but value the company of others here. Some will stay and some will go. Then there's the large middle ground. People that are past newbies, but mostly read the forums to pick up the occasional tidbit of advice or new direction to explore. Many of them won't see those tidbits as being worth the money, so you'll lose a large number of them.
Of the experts that hang out, some of them that have the potential to make money off of members will stay for business reasons, but others that are here simply to help others and give free advice will move on to a free forum.
Forums to me seem a great way of creating and maintaining a community. I've been a member of forums since the 1980s, back when BIX (run by Byte magazine) was the biggest thing out there. I've been a moderator on forums at Compuserve, Adobe, CafePress, and others.
To me it seems that a successful, and profitable site can be built around free forums, which bring in and build the community, who then spends money on other features that are not free. If newbies find a free forum with lots of help and then discover that for only $5 a pop they can download tutorials relating to what they want to do, you'll get lots of them spending their money. There are lots of other ways of adding revenue generators to a site, including services, seminars, or tie-ins with distributors (buy products using a coupon code and get 5% off while the site gets a 5% sales commission)
A few other random thoughts (this post is already waaay too long):
I assume you realize that if your system says 1200 people have joined, that you don't think there's anywhere near that number of "real" members. If your software can give you stats, see how many have logged in during the past month or two, and subtract from that the number that have joined in that amount of time. That's a more realistic number of real members. Figure that you may lose 60% of those in this move and that will give you an idea of the true size the site will be 40 days or so from now.
Just some thoughts, and not trying to put you on the defensive. I know you're suddenly under a lot of pressure that you weren't expecting to hit you so suddenly.
EDIT: oops, spelled your name wrong, which isn't easy since it's my name too. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DAVERJ
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49]
5 May 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#48] 5 May 2006
I, (I think I can probably say 'we' with no worries), thank you for your thoughts. You did come up with one or two that we did not look into. Just wish we had that information a year earlier.
Personal thoughts on the idea of getting a kickback from advertisers, although it could be looked at as advertising dollars with no strings attached, still feels like a kickback to me.
We do not want to feed on our members, that is what that feels like to me.
We do not want to promise the world, only to deliver it. :O
The problem of new members has been discussed ad infinitum. Closer to ad nauseam.
We hope we have part of that solved.
We are working out a few kinks to still have some content free. Some are wild programming nightmares, which will have to be redone when we upgrade software. (We did not go to version .6 due to a bug laden search feature. We feel that a good search is a necessity.)
When the free content is decided, partially on if it is programmable, David will announce it. We do not want to lock people out, just cover bills and enhance what is here.
In the last few days some ideas have come up that need to be researched to have a more informative forum than it is now. They will probably be integrated when the research is done. Some may not pan out so I will not announce vaporware here.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
Zona,
I will remain an assistant moderator of the subscription site, will not accept any income or salary, and have actually planned on paying David, unknowingly, for a subscription to the site. This should answer where I stand on the issue of it ever becoming a big source of income for me. Another job is something I don't need right now. I'm thoroughly enjoying the one I've got. :-)
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#51]
5 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#50] 5 May 2006
And David L. does not want to be paid back for his layouts for hosting and the programing fees. Does that tell you where we stand?
My opinion is that David L. is going to get payback if I have to ram it down his throat, which may be necessary.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#52]
5 May 2006
To: EncompassTech [#47] 5 May 2006
Cherie,
I can only speak for myself. Never have I ever considered anything I do here as helping David (sorry David). I've always done it in the spirit of kindness, helping peers to better themselves and their operations in the awards and engraving industry. I've been very fortunate to learn alot in return at the same time. You see, that is how kindness works.
The fact that a subscription fee will be charged does not change anything, but what it does do is provide me with a business tool that is great to begin with, but now has the opportunity to become just part of something that is even more valuable. I'm willing to invest some modest dollars in that future.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: UncleSteve [#53]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#34] 5 May 2006
While I understand and respect your choice to not become a paid member, I highly question your ethics in trying to promote another forum here. :-(
Perhaps you would like to become a paid advertiser for your "free" forum... Ooops, that would also make you a paid member! >.<
From: sprinter [#54]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49] 5 May 2006
So far I'm seeing more "Time to move on" comments than "where do I make my payment to" comments.
You keep talking about covering costs, just one member would pay for your hosting costs. Be honest about it, someone is going to be making some money, I have nothing against someone trying to make a buck, but stop blowing smoke for the reason this site is going to be a pay site.
You also keep mentioning programming cost, if you would change to a more robust forum software package you wouldn't have those costs. YaBB and phpBB already have most of the features you have mentioned and they are also free just like Beehive.
I would be willing to make a donation, but not $10 per month your asking for membership.
From: UncleSteve [#55]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
If you paid for a year at a time at full fee ($99), it is only about $8.50/month
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
I guess you will not be here as the smoke starts to clear, too bad. That is meant seriously, not as an insult.
Really good programmers are not cheap, they want to earn a living.
You have no idea as to what is intended, so have no idea of costs. The one blowing smoke just shifted.
We tried other premium software at one point, the members thought it was awful compared to this software, so we returned. I was very happy about the return. We tried and learned.
There are things that have been done to improve the forum that most do not see, and some notice only a little, because the enhancements went so naturally. There was a bad flicker when posting a message from a Mac. Most did not see that, but it cost a bit to find what caused it and correct it.
Many things that you do not know, nor have any need to know. But they just are.
I hate when someone says trust me, but that is all I can say at the moment unless you want to volunteer to be on the board of directors, and there is an opening.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: sprinter [#57]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
I really do wish you guys well and hope it works out. But it looks to be all up hill.
Thanks for the board offer, but I think to be asked to join Bush's
cabinet or staff would be a more secure position to be in.
From: Peter [#58]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
"Oh Dear" said Ee ore........
"Oh Dear" said Tigger......
They then all hugged each other, looked over their shoulders and in the most glum of faces, all said together...
"Oh Dear"
:-( :-(
From: mikew [#59]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
Why reinvent the wheel or for that matter try to get members to pay to reinvent it. Take Vbulletin for example, SMC has been using it for years now and it runs great! It can be purchased outright for $160, then all you have are the bandwidth cost.
As far as bugs every program has them whether you build it yourself or purchase one ready to go.
From: precisionlaser [#60]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
I understand that David and the other moderators run the site, but it strikes me that this site doesn't belong to any one person (I understand that David L may disagree with me), because I'd bet that if you added up all of the freely given information and advice, you'd find that by and large, it doesn't come from those who would collect the cash and control the site.
I certainly understand that the moderators spend a LOT of time managing the site and policing the posts...and they've done a magnificent job of this. I know I wouldn't have time or expertise to do the same job they've done. I also understand that it takes money to host and maintain a site with this much content. But...something about this plan is definitely off putting to me. Perhaps it's the idea that taking a community meeting place such as this and turning it into a place where you have to pay to play seems wrong to me. Imagine the town square where people come to gather, talk, share and have a good time, and then putting a ticket booth there...pay or walk away? I'm sure those people would have no problems at all contributing either in cash or in kind (host the site, offer disk space, program changes) ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS to make sure that their community meeting place stayed well maintained. I know I'd have no problem with this idea, but pay for access when the vast majority of the content is provided by those who would have to pay to provide the content?
My unsolicited opinion is that this should have been handled in a community discussion and from the point of view that contributions are necessary to defray the costs of running the site. I'm sure that most wouldn't have a problem with a reasonable stipend for the moderators in return for the amazing amount of time they put in. After all, our community discussions wouldn't be possible without all of the behind the scenes work they do. People contributing to make sure that something they like is continued, with their consent, in a positive environment...instead of a "my way or the highway", "here's what we're gonna do" approach.
I don't think it's too late to back up and handle this in a different way...
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#61]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
None of this is coming as a surprise. It's been discussed multiple times in the past.
I just caught up with my reading. After I post this, I'll be gone for a week. (family vacation with my brother, his family, and our parents.)
It'll be interesting to see what I come back to. I wish the yearly fee were $40. That would make it a lot easier to swallow. I'm hoping it doesn't go pay for at least another month. Don't think I could afford the $ right now. (I would never have joined if there were a fee. hope some trial period could be worked out for new people.)
(if anyone replies to this I'll see it when I return.)
From: Tom (TJGEENEN) [#62]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
As a "Mostly Lurker" and very much a newbie in the engraving business I will be paying to be a member. As for where the money goes I really do not care. I hope all you moderators make a ton of cash with this board. As long as I am getting my $79 in " unbaised info" then the more power to ya. The key to the whole thing IMO is not being influeced by advertisers which you seemed to have taken care of. When I start seeing biased or politicly correct answers then I am out of here.
Good luck guys, It does make you wonder what "The Beach III is going to look like?
Tom
From: Tom (TJGEENEN) [#63]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
On the new board I will remember to hit the spellcheck button. How embarrassing.
Tom
From: cardjim (JIMMY) [#64]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
Holy Smmmmmokes!!!!!!!!!
What Happened? I go away for like a week and all this when I get back. Let's try to work this out. First thing--$99? Who came up with that? How many of us really think that's not a hundred bucks? So right there someon's had this idea--"OK boys what are we going to charge? I know let's do the Wal-mart thing and say $99 and if you say it real fast it won't sting so bad". Hey just level up-If it takes a hundred say you want a hundred. Personaly, I think that's way to much. For some , maybe not. I've seen pictures of some of these shops with the fancy shelves and the mall atmosphere and the suit and ties. But I bet you didn't start there. and a lot of the ppl that come here are just starting and not able to do That kind of $ for the info.
I have enjoyed this forum immensley after being steered here by Brewer Sales. I would like to here their imput on this situation. The last forum I belonged to started out just like this. But as time went along small clicks evolved and bickering set in and I lost interest. Went there a few months ago and forum gone. There was a time when new members were pouring in and a fee was considered.
I could go on but it's late. I can't say if I would pay--Probably not. If I had never been here then for sure not. Something will come along to replace this. and all this great kinship will be lost. I really hope this can all be worked out. Some of us don't live in big markets but we still have big dreams. Don't turn us little guys away. Peace--Jimmy
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
I just got back from a grueling day on the road. The season is beginning. >.<
I appreciate the input, good and bad. I truly do.
I'd say this thread's been an eye-opener, but most of it's been said, in past discussions on the topic.
Your input has me contemplating some tweaks to the plan, but the core concept, is very much intact.
My way or the highway?
Hardly. With occasional mentions, over the past two years, of my desire to take this site to a subscription format, shouldn't those of you, so adamantly opposed to the idea, (no matter the cost) have taken that as your cue to build a better highway?
It's not too late. Build it and they will come. Isn't that the way it works?
I must say I was amused, by the threat; or was it a suggestion?; to use an engravingetc.free or some such mutation of this site's name, to launch a competing site.
That's an excellent idea. While you're at it, pick up a cup of "Stirbuck's" and a "Rolax" watch to help you pass the time.
Very imaginative.
On the topic of money. EE is a sole proprietorship, with myself as its principle. As a business owner, like many of you, I'm not ashamed to say that I expect a profit from this business.
In the same breath, as a business owner, I'll turn money back into the business, which will directly benefit the members of this site.
Here's an odd dynamic, that I've never been able to fathom. Maybe some of you have the answer:
Why is it that people in this industry will spend tens-of-thousands of dollars, in equipment and materials; not to mention hundreds, if not thousands more, traveling to trade shows and attending paid seminars, only to conclude that a single dime, spent in the direction of this site, with its time-honored track record of providing expedient assistance, is an utter waste of money?
This site has always relied on collective input. Nobody, (if they're being honest), can say they haven't (at some point) gained knowledge, they didn't originally have, as the result of being a forum member.
It's late and I'll leave it at that. I can't think of anything to add that hasn't been covered in my previous comments.
From: sprinter [#66]
6 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65] 6 May 2006
David, I would like to thank you for all the hard work and dedication you have put into this forum, your vision has been interesting at times but overall it has been great. You have every right to make this forum subscription based, and I wish you the best.
Boy does this "Stirbuck's" taste good this morning. The idea of engravingetcfree.com was not meant to be a threat or suggestion or to compete with engravingetc, it was meant to be an alternate highway for members that choose not to subscribe to a paid forum. From the comments from many members an alternate highway is needed to continue the sharing of free information and help when needed. I realize SMC is available, but it really is slanted more to the wood side of the business. Possibly a different name should of been used, but consider it a compliment to your great vision.
EDITED: 6 May 2006 by SPRINTER
From: sprinter [#67]
6 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 6 May 2006
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