Full Version: DSSI Engraving Folder / EE Announcement
From: UncleSteve [#53]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#34] 5 May 2006
While I understand and respect your choice to not become a paid member, I highly question your ethics in trying to promote another forum here. :-(
Perhaps you would like to become a paid advertiser for your "free" forum... Ooops, that would also make you a paid member! >.<
From: sprinter [#54]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#49] 5 May 2006
So far I'm seeing more "Time to move on" comments than "where do I make my payment to" comments.
You keep talking about covering costs, just one member would pay for your hosting costs. Be honest about it, someone is going to be making some money, I have nothing against someone trying to make a buck, but stop blowing smoke for the reason this site is going to be a pay site.
You also keep mentioning programming cost, if you would change to a more robust forum software package you wouldn't have those costs. YaBB and phpBB already have most of the features you have mentioned and they are also free just like Beehive.
I would be willing to make a donation, but not $10 per month your asking for membership.
From: UncleSteve [#55]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
If you paid for a year at a time at full fee ($99), it is only about $8.50/month
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56]
5 May 2006
To: sprinter [#54] 5 May 2006
I guess you will not be here as the smoke starts to clear, too bad. That is meant seriously, not as an insult.
Really good programmers are not cheap, they want to earn a living.
You have no idea as to what is intended, so have no idea of costs. The one blowing smoke just shifted.
We tried other premium software at one point, the members thought it was awful compared to this software, so we returned. I was very happy about the return. We tried and learned.
There are things that have been done to improve the forum that most do not see, and some notice only a little, because the enhancements went so naturally. There was a bad flicker when posting a message from a Mac. Most did not see that, but it cost a bit to find what caused it and correct it.
Many things that you do not know, nor have any need to know. But they just are.
I hate when someone says trust me, but that is all I can say at the moment unless you want to volunteer to be on the board of directors, and there is an opening.
EDITED: 5 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: sprinter [#57]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
I really do wish you guys well and hope it works out. But it looks to be all up hill.
Thanks for the board offer, but I think to be asked to join Bush's
cabinet or staff would be a more secure position to be in.
From: Peter [#58]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
"Oh Dear" said Ee ore........
"Oh Dear" said Tigger......
They then all hugged each other, looked over their shoulders and in the most glum of faces, all said together...
"Oh Dear"
:-( :-(
From: mikew [#59]
5 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 5 May 2006
Why reinvent the wheel or for that matter try to get members to pay to reinvent it. Take Vbulletin for example, SMC has been using it for years now and it runs great! It can be purchased outright for $160, then all you have are the bandwidth cost.
As far as bugs every program has them whether you build it yourself or purchase one ready to go.
From: precisionlaser [#60]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
I understand that David and the other moderators run the site, but it strikes me that this site doesn't belong to any one person (I understand that David L may disagree with me), because I'd bet that if you added up all of the freely given information and advice, you'd find that by and large, it doesn't come from those who would collect the cash and control the site.
I certainly understand that the moderators spend a LOT of time managing the site and policing the posts...and they've done a magnificent job of this. I know I wouldn't have time or expertise to do the same job they've done. I also understand that it takes money to host and maintain a site with this much content. But...something about this plan is definitely off putting to me. Perhaps it's the idea that taking a community meeting place such as this and turning it into a place where you have to pay to play seems wrong to me. Imagine the town square where people come to gather, talk, share and have a good time, and then putting a ticket booth there...pay or walk away? I'm sure those people would have no problems at all contributing either in cash or in kind (host the site, offer disk space, program changes) ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS to make sure that their community meeting place stayed well maintained. I know I'd have no problem with this idea, but pay for access when the vast majority of the content is provided by those who would have to pay to provide the content?
My unsolicited opinion is that this should have been handled in a community discussion and from the point of view that contributions are necessary to defray the costs of running the site. I'm sure that most wouldn't have a problem with a reasonable stipend for the moderators in return for the amazing amount of time they put in. After all, our community discussions wouldn't be possible without all of the behind the scenes work they do. People contributing to make sure that something they like is continued, with their consent, in a positive environment...instead of a "my way or the highway", "here's what we're gonna do" approach.
I don't think it's too late to back up and handle this in a different way...
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#61]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
None of this is coming as a surprise. It's been discussed multiple times in the past.
I just caught up with my reading. After I post this, I'll be gone for a week. (family vacation with my brother, his family, and our parents.)
It'll be interesting to see what I come back to. I wish the yearly fee were $40. That would make it a lot easier to swallow. I'm hoping it doesn't go pay for at least another month. Don't think I could afford the $ right now. (I would never have joined if there were a fee. hope some trial period could be worked out for new people.)
(if anyone replies to this I'll see it when I return.)
From: Tom (TJGEENEN) [#62]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
As a "Mostly Lurker" and very much a newbie in the engraving business I will be paying to be a member. As for where the money goes I really do not care. I hope all you moderators make a ton of cash with this board. As long as I am getting my $79 in " unbaised info" then the more power to ya. The key to the whole thing IMO is not being influeced by advertisers which you seemed to have taken care of. When I start seeing biased or politicly correct answers then I am out of here.
Good luck guys, It does make you wonder what "The Beach III is going to look like?
Tom
From: Tom (TJGEENEN) [#63]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
On the new board I will remember to hit the spellcheck button. How embarrassing.
Tom
From: cardjim (JIMMY) [#64]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
Holy Smmmmmokes!!!!!!!!!
What Happened? I go away for like a week and all this when I get back. Let's try to work this out. First thing--$99? Who came up with that? How many of us really think that's not a hundred bucks? So right there someon's had this idea--"OK boys what are we going to charge? I know let's do the Wal-mart thing and say $99 and if you say it real fast it won't sting so bad". Hey just level up-If it takes a hundred say you want a hundred. Personaly, I think that's way to much. For some , maybe not. I've seen pictures of some of these shops with the fancy shelves and the mall atmosphere and the suit and ties. But I bet you didn't start there. and a lot of the ppl that come here are just starting and not able to do That kind of $ for the info.
I have enjoyed this forum immensley after being steered here by Brewer Sales. I would like to here their imput on this situation. The last forum I belonged to started out just like this. But as time went along small clicks evolved and bickering set in and I lost interest. Went there a few months ago and forum gone. There was a time when new members were pouring in and a fee was considered.
I could go on but it's late. I can't say if I would pay--Probably not. If I had never been here then for sure not. Something will come along to replace this. and all this great kinship will be lost. I really hope this can all be worked out. Some of us don't live in big markets but we still have big dreams. Don't turn us little guys away. Peace--Jimmy
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65]
5 May 2006
To: ALL
I just got back from a grueling day on the road. The season is beginning. >.<
I appreciate the input, good and bad. I truly do.
I'd say this thread's been an eye-opener, but most of it's been said, in past discussions on the topic.
Your input has me contemplating some tweaks to the plan, but the core concept, is very much intact.
My way or the highway?
Hardly. With occasional mentions, over the past two years, of my desire to take this site to a subscription format, shouldn't those of you, so adamantly opposed to the idea, (no matter the cost) have taken that as your cue to build a better highway?
It's not too late. Build it and they will come. Isn't that the way it works?
I must say I was amused, by the threat; or was it a suggestion?; to use an engravingetc.free or some such mutation of this site's name, to launch a competing site.
That's an excellent idea. While you're at it, pick up a cup of "Stirbuck's" and a "Rolax" watch to help you pass the time.
Very imaginative.
On the topic of money. EE is a sole proprietorship, with myself as its principle. As a business owner, like many of you, I'm not ashamed to say that I expect a profit from this business.
In the same breath, as a business owner, I'll turn money back into the business, which will directly benefit the members of this site.
Here's an odd dynamic, that I've never been able to fathom. Maybe some of you have the answer:
Why is it that people in this industry will spend tens-of-thousands of dollars, in equipment and materials; not to mention hundreds, if not thousands more, traveling to trade shows and attending paid seminars, only to conclude that a single dime, spent in the direction of this site, with its time-honored track record of providing expedient assistance, is an utter waste of money?
This site has always relied on collective input. Nobody, (if they're being honest), can say they haven't (at some point) gained knowledge, they didn't originally have, as the result of being a forum member.
It's late and I'll leave it at that. I can't think of anything to add that hasn't been covered in my previous comments.
From: sprinter [#66]
6 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65] 6 May 2006
David, I would like to thank you for all the hard work and dedication you have put into this forum, your vision has been interesting at times but overall it has been great. You have every right to make this forum subscription based, and I wish you the best.
Boy does this "Stirbuck's" taste good this morning. The idea of engravingetcfree.com was not meant to be a threat or suggestion or to compete with engravingetc, it was meant to be an alternate highway for members that choose not to subscribe to a paid forum. From the comments from many members an alternate highway is needed to continue the sharing of free information and help when needed. I realize SMC is available, but it really is slanted more to the wood side of the business. Possibly a different name should of been used, but consider it a compliment to your great vision.
EDITED: 6 May 2006 by SPRINTER
From: sprinter [#67]
6 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#56] 6 May 2006
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#68]
6 May 2006
To: sprinter [#67] 6 May 2006
I am glad you took the time to see the code, a great learning experience. You have seen the results first so it probably makes more sense.
David is very serious about someone opening engravingetc.free. He has never been afraid of competition and has no qualms about that happening. If someone wants to do it it is fine with us. We may even learn something from it. Friendly competition is always good for both sides.
We wish all the best, that is sort of what this forum is all about.
From: sprinter [#69]
6 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#68] 6 May 2006
Hi Harvey,
Actually I have taken David up on his offer and have opened www.engravingetcfree.com this morning. I want to stress, it is not to compete, but to continue the flow of free information and help. Everyone is welcome and I hope both you and David stop by to post. The site is very rough and will take some time.
I'm looking for moderators if your interested :D
Message 3725.70 was deleted
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#71]
6 May 2006
To: sprinter [#69] 6 May 2006
I will be by after the weekend, out of town Sat-Mon as usual.
Thanks for the offer, but it is getting busy here and the finalization of what we are attempting is also eating up more time. Also I need to devote some time to my business.
I truly wish you the best of luck. See you there later.
From: spudislander (WILLM) [#72]
6 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#65] 6 May 2006
I don't think you'll find anybody opposed to you making money off of this venture. Most if not all will agree that you should be compensated monetarily for your efforts. This is a business for you.
I think either this announcement is premature or you have done a poor job selling your vision as to what benefits members will recieve.
Besides a library of clipart (most have or don't need) what else are you offering as a benefit for the subscription?
This is the question that will be the deciding factor for the majority of members.
I know you have been suggestioned to death. I am sure your decisions make sense to you but as you can see from this thread it doesn't to the majority of members.
I will expect to see participation at this point begin to decrease and I think it will be only a matter of time (shortly I expect) to see a migration to another forum. All the bravado in the world will not change this from happening.
Here goes my unwanted suggestions.
1. leave the forum free - it will continue to grow and become the major community of the industry. It can become a revenue creating cornerstone for your business in many other ways.
2. Develop other revenue creation models from the success of the forum, including a subscription service for other value added benefits. i.e. your clipart library, perhaps monthly articles, charge to have classified advertisements. I don't see any concern about charging for advertising as long as there are no restrictions about open discussion in the forum. Believe it or not there are many other trade magazines that do offer unbiased articles on products without fear of retribution from angry advertisers. Maximum PC comes to mind first.
Develop the success of the Forum into an actual organization. Negotiate group benefits for members. There are so many other ways to genereate income off of the success of this forum, that I'm sure a man of your creativity will have no problem becoming the Bill Gates of engraving :-)
I think you are confused by the participation of the core group as being worth the cost of membership. Many come here and participate because of the relationships that have been built through this media. Most will not pay for that continued benefit. It is appearing that your business model is holding those relationships hostage and as a result there will be negative backlash.
I wish I could communicate these messages through this media as well as I could live but that is for the future forums ;-)
So to reiterate the intention of this post.
WHY? should I join???
I hope you have more to tell me than this forum.
Will
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