Full Version: Thoughts and Decisions
From: LaZerDude (C_BURKE) [#19]
25 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#17] 25 May 2006
The land was flat by me, but burrowing through the ten foot snow drifts was a bummer.
Harvey,
While I am not a moderator or anything, I think THIS is one thread that should not be taken off topic. ( insert loud wrist slap sound here)
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20]
25 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18] 25 May 2006
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#21]
25 May 2006
To: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#20] 25 May 2006
I was hoping to have something in most of the categories, rather than in the works. I wanted the people in premium to at least see that things were being done rather than just underway.
The things that require outlay for equipment/programs would have to wait, but I did not want that to take too long. After all, when premium is paid, we want to see premium delivered, not just that it is coming.
I wanted the accusations of smoke and mirrors to be ended instantly. If it takes a while, it will still be viewed as smoke and mirrors, with good reason. By the way, I do not feel that the smoke and mirror accusations were totally wrong, we have nothing to show at the moment. If we show what we have at the moment, there goes the premium to the free site, (our free site). Then what do we have to offer?
As sprinter said, between a rock and a hard place. It is very true.
EDITED: 25 May 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Ken D. (KDEVORY) [#22]
25 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#21] 25 May 2006
If only there were a soft bed between the two.
Speaking of which, I have an early morning tomorrow...
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#23]
25 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#21] 25 May 2006
From: bluepaw [#24]
25 May 2006
To: ALL
I hope no one here will take offense for my making a comment here.
If I am out of line just remove this and I will go back into my corner.
"It seems to me that what you are starting with the pay site is a business.
When you start a business you don't open the doors and hope to make enough money the first day to pay for everything.
When you open a business you have to invest up front for the startup with enough extra in the bank to cover expenses until the new venture takes off. If you start off underfunded then you are almost certainly doomed to failure.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#25]
25 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#23] 28 May 2006
As the unset concept is at the moment you are correct. David and I need to spend a few hours on the phone again to try to jell what will be. We missed our two hour session last week, so this one may take four hours.
Just when you think you have it down pat, someone throws some new ideas into the mix and you have to re-examine everything. That was one of the reasons that there were no firm answers, then when we thought that there were some firm answers, we were inundated with new concepts. This site is rife with good thinkers, sometimes that is a bad thing, but usually a good thing.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#26]
25 May 2006
To: bluepaw [#24] 25 May 2006
That is usually the way to go if it is a business.
What we are trying to do is make this site a more valuable place for our members. Right now there is nothing in the bank but a deficit of everything that David has paid out. He has invested years and a good amount of cash on this site, and to move on there needs to be some income. A bad business plan, yes. A good move for our members, we certainly hope so.
Sometimes you have to think out of the box.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#27]
25 May 2006
To: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#23] 28 May 2006
Thinking out loud: If we get the low-cost, "basic cable" membership underway, we'll be able to get more of the "whistles and bells" rolling.
We've already shown some examples of Premium Features, in the way of our first TeleSeminar, with Anthony Coyne and assorted PicTutorials and Ruben's recent Camtasia Studio CS tutorial.
I've already been lining up guest speakers, for future TeleSeminars, including Diane Bosworth, on the topic of laser engraving and Mike O'Hara, on the topic of photography.
I've also been in contact with people with a knowldege of the history of our industry, including the son of a TDMA Hall of Famer, who are agreeing to be interviewed (audio).
We can add more features, under the heading of the basic membership, but the question then becomes; at what point do we determine there's enough "premium content" to justify an official premium level?
From: bluepaw [#28]
26 May 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#26] 27 May 2006
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#29]
26 May 2006
To: bluepaw [#28] 26 May 2006
It may start out as a labor of love, but eventually evolve into a full-time job if it is received well.
Some may perceive the subscription fee as a means of profiting. I perceive it as revenue necessary to replace the lost income David will sustain because of more time being focused on the features of the website for our benefit and enjoyment.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30]
26 May 2006
To: bluepaw [#28] 26 May 2006
Your thoughts, with respect to trying to get this venture off the ground, while being underfunded, were exactly the thoughts I shared with my fellow moderators, months ago, behind-the-scenes.
We're attempting something that's never been done (in this industry).
Where to start ($) is a fine line.
I've made no secret of the fact, I'd like to make money from the pay site. I also realize a lot of money will have to be spent, in taking it where I want to go.
"It takes money, to make money" and that axiom is something I hope our potential subscribers will keep in mind.
One of our functions, is helping people avoid the wrong turns and back alleys, many of us have traveled.
Teaching people what to do is important.
Teaching people what not to do, will be invaluable and I'm sure many will feel, worth the cost of admission.
EDITED: 26 May 2006 by DGL
From: bluepaw [#31]
26 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#30] 27 May 2006
David,
In my first post I was seriously trying to make a helpful point.
The second post was a bit of sarcasm.
Of course it will be a business, and as with any business the creator of that project deserves to make a profit. I have been here long enough to realize how much you have put into this and how much you are willing to do to make it work. It didn't get to where it is today without a lot of hard work and investment.
I wish you the very best of luck in making this venture into what you dreamed it would be when you started out, as I am sure everyone here does. And as for making money with it I say go for it. For you I would bet that the satisfaction of creating a great place for people to learn is the most important but there ain't nothing wrong with profiting.
Have a good and safe Memorial Day.
Bill
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32]
27 May 2006
To: bluepaw [#31] 27 May 2006
This industry has been very good to myself and many others.
Personally, there's nothing more satisfying, than to help people up the ladder that's enabled me to carve out (no pun intended) a decent living, while performing such a fun and creative process, with some of the nicest people in the world, as customers.
There have been comments on my out-of-pocket expenses.
I haven't really thought too much about the expenses, other than the largest expense I've endured, which has been considerable time away from my profit-producing work.
That's taken a tangible toll.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#33]
27 May 2006
To: ALL
That is the point I think that some people are missing. For anything to get accomplished toward the expansion into a useful website, it is going to take someone's valuable time. In fact, to do it right, it will take a heck of a lot more work than one person can handle. That is where the money comes in. It won't happen to the degree it needs to until the cash flows.
$36 annually for the basic forum, with an optional upgrade to the subscription website and its features at a price to be determined. Let's get this show on the road.
I don't know how the rest of the folks here feel about this structure? Ultimately it is David's decision, but I think we need to air it out and see where everyone stands as a whole. Please keep your comments cordial, regardless of where you stand on the issue.
EDITED: 27 May 2006 by DATAKES
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#34]
27 May 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#33] 29 May 2006
Hi
David,
What makes you feel that the site isn't useful the way it is right now?
Everyone keeps talking about this grandiose plan......What is it exactly?
The real problem is that it is a chicken or egg issue. Without the money...the changes can't be made. Without the changes, there is little logical reason for the money......
There are only two real solutions to the problem..........
David must define the vision, to help raise funds and pique interest, or raise the money on his own with investors/personal finances, like any real business would.
Oops....I guess there is a Third option...................The third solution would be to leave it well enough alone. Minimum costs, a perfectly happy captive audience, and much less time investment than starting a big plan.....
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#35]
27 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#34] 27 May 2006
While you're awaiting a response from David T., I have a question for you, or anyone else who can explain the popularity of some forums, over others.
Why is that?
It can't be merely the fact that they're free.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#36]
27 May 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#35] 27 May 2006
I agree...It's more far complex than the fact that they are free.
I would guess participation has alot to do with it....as does attitude.
I find this forum to have excellent participation and the people here are helpful, willing to share, and really deeply nice. I believe that these are the key ingredients.
Making it pay won't change those basics, or mean that someone else can't put the same thing together with the same values in 24 hours like sprinter did.
I think the general fear that was brought out when you were "starting" the change to pay, might have been that your personal dreams may spoil a really great thing that you already have going....
I have no problem with you having dreams and wanting to do something bigger and better, but as I mentioned to David Takes....I'm not sure the majority want more than what they have already. If you want to go pay, you have to offer more than what you have here.....and I doubt that most want anything else. I may be totaly off base, but most of the people that support your wish to change to pay is because they feel like you should be getting something for all your efforts. Not necessarily because a bigger and better EE is necessary or even a good idea.
I think your in a tough spot. And from my view I only see a real resolution in the three basic ways that I mentioned to David T. To achieve your dream you need to tell people what they will be getting to justify the flow of cash, or raise money on your own, or through investment. The third option is one that I doubt you will like, as you have vowed to move forward.....but you could leave the blasted thing alone and find other ways to raise revenue.
I directed the post at David T because I found the one statement (that I quoted) in his post rather interesting......I'm very interested in what your thoughts are as well regarding this question....
What's wrong with what's here already?
Thanks,
Brian G.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#37]
27 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#34] 28 May 2006
And offer the investors what? No return on investment and a constant need for more investment because the site is free?
I guess that $3 per month is above minimum cost for you. To each his own.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#38]
27 May 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#36] 28 May 2006
I think the question is, "What's right, at EE already?
There must be more than meets the eye.
Free forums...are...well...free forums.
The A&E forum, by rights, should have been the venue to beat all. After all, it was one of the first on the block, initiated by a major trade publication and wasn't single-faceted, at all.
My friend, Jim Williams, disillusioned (as were others, including myself) with the A&E forum, launched the Yahoo Trophy and Award Engravers forum, before I launched EE on Delphi.
Today, the A&E forum is gone (and they graciously point people here) and Jim's forum is barely active.
I agree, (contrary to my original belief) not everyone wants a bigger and better site. That's why I'm proposing the "basic cable" option, for an amount, even the most frugal prospect, would see as very affordable.
That option, is the forum, as you see it today, which has been touted as extremely valuable, by many, including yourself.
My grandiose plan, if any, is to pay people for compelling content, such as Ruben Salcedo's excellent Camtasia Studio presentation, which I think we can all agree, did a much more expedient job, of demonstrating a procedure, than several of the printed-word posts, combined.
I emailed Ruben and thanked him for the "free sample." I mentioned I'd like to pay him for future presentations. Ruben wasn't opposed to that idea, because of the time and editing involved, in the production of the piece.
Naturally, if I'm paying for content, the "Whistles and Bells" will come at a cost.
That content will be available to "basic cable" members, cafeteria-style, while much of the same content will be included (at no additional cost, or very nominally) in a Premium membership.
That's exactly right; nor does it mean a free forum will immediately blossom as a result.
I'm not opposed to people feeling I should be compensated for nearly seven-years-worth of unpaid effort and out-of-pocket expenses.
I'm one of those people; although that's not my primary objective.
EDITED: 28 May 2006 by DGL
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