Full Version: BallStars-Be Careful
From: precisionlaser [#1]
23 Jun 2006
To: ALL
As some of you know, I posted a few queries a couple of months back about this company, its products and equipment. The reason I did so was that I had a significant opportunity to resell their product into a major retail chain. I won't name names, but it was a chain of about 500 stores.
This opportunity was realized and we began to sell product about a month ago. Unfortunately, when BallStars became aware of this, they decided to compete with me on a direct basis. Needless to say, I can't compete with their factory direct costs, so I am losing this business.
I am posting this because I think this is a major ethical violation of the trust that supposedly exists between a manufacturer like BallStars and its distributors. Companies like BallStars are built on a distributor model and should honor those relationships and not compete with their distributors. I find it incredible and astonishing that they have decided to make this move and I can only think that they must be desperate for business.
Needless to say, they've really screwed me on this and I recommend in the STRONGEST terms that if you're considering doing business with them to be very careful. In fact, I'd strongly recommend not doing business with them at all. My opinion is that the management of this company is unethical.
I'm sorry to have to post this, but I don't want anyone else to get this kind of shabby treatment.
EDITED: 23 Jun 2006 by HARVEY-ONLY
From: Zippos (CARDSPLUS) [#2]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#1] 23 Jun 2006
Mark,
As a distributor of licensed sports memorabilia and Zippo lighters, we have come across this situation in the past with certain manufacturers. Fortunately, we knew up front in writing from the manufacturer if only they would deal with national chains and take them over if a distributor such as us would open the door (as you did).
It would seem to me that as a distributor you should make sure you are aware of this type situation in advance of opening the dialogue with a chain. If in fact the manufacturer has nothing in writing and took the account from you, it is up to you to decide if you make enough money on their product to keep the relationship going.
Sorry for the situation, but unfortunately there are manufactrers like that out there.
Mike
Cards Plus
P (800) 231-9454
F (718)966-4250
E www.CardsPlus01@aol.com
From: precisionlaser [#3]
23 Jun 2006
To: Zippos (CARDSPLUS) [#2] 23 Jun 2006
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#4]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#1] 23 Jun 2006
One thing I would wonder, which I don't know if you know for sure, would be if the manufacturer approached the chain (that would be unethical), or if the chain approached the manufacturer. Many large chains become distributors themselves, since they have all of their stores as "customers" and usually have no problem being given distributorships by manufacturers. When a manufacturer has exclusive regional distributors, the chain might get around that by taking on a region anywhere that is open, since they might have stores in many regions.
Just a thought.
From: precisionlaser [#5]
23 Jun 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#4] 23 Jun 2006
From: Barbara (RGILE) [#6]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#5] 23 Jun 2006
It's too bad that people cannot stand to see someone get ahead. They were still making money by you buying product from them.
You are right, it's just greed.
They will get paid back someday.
Sorry you had to get burned.
Barb
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#5] 23 Jun 2006
And the stupidest part of it all is that they probably not making any more money selling direct to them then they would be by selling to you. Maybe even less if they had to drop prices.
If they sell to them at distributor costs they just make the same, but prevent you from making anything. Just plain stupid. But the sales rep may even get a bonus for the stupidity.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#8]
23 Jun 2006
To: ALL
From: precisionlaser [#9]
23 Jun 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#8] 23 Jun 2006
From: precisionlaser [#10]
23 Jun 2006
To: Barbara (RGILE) [#6] 27 Jun 2006
From: precisionlaser [#11]
23 Jun 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#7] 23 Jun 2006
Thanks Harvey,
You're totally correct and when they consider the logistics costs and other issues which I can't get into, they may find that the better deal would have been to simply support us...better for them in terms of reputation AND finances...just plain stupid behavior on their part, in my humble opinion.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
23 Jun 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#8] 23 Jun 2006
Harvey,
We'll go with your title.
Mine would have been, "This takes Ballstars."
I wonder how John Gygnell, owner of "Oz Ballstars" the newest distributor/licensee, for Australia and New Zealand will fare?
Probably not as well as he'd like, now that Ballstars has set a bad precedent in the U.S.
That's going way "down under." :S
Just a second.
<thumbing through NBM Long Beach flyer>
Ahh yes. Ballstars will be an exhibitor at the Long Beach Show, July 20-22, 2006.
I'll invite Ballstars to visit this thread, in order to hear both sides of the story.
If they decline, there's always a golden opportunity to have a face-to-face in Long Beach.
I'm a good listener and have plenty of time to devote to the story. :-)
EDITED: 23 Jun 2006 by DGL
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#12] 23 Jun 2006
Mark,
Here's a copy of the email I just sent to Ballstars:
I'm the host/moderator of Engraving Etc. www.engravingetc.org/forum
One of our members, Mark Dickens, of Precision Laser, posted a message to my forum that Ballstars was/is engaged in unethical business practices, concerning a situation wherein Ballstars did an end-run and went direct with a major account that he'd developed.
I'm asking for your side of the story.
We only allow first-hand, factual accounts, when it comes to this type of matter.
If there's no truth to Mark's story, we'll delete the thread.
We'd appreciate a response on the forum, although a private response will be ample.
I will, of course, mention your response to the forum members.
Thank you.
David Lavaneri
===================================================
EDITED: 28 Oct 2006 by DGL
From: precisionlaser [#14]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#13] 23 Jun 2006
That's fine, David...I'll be interested to see how they respond.
These days with the Internet coverage of these kinds of things (think AOL, I'd like to cancel my account), companies are called to account in many public forums for less than ethical behavior. Let the fun begin...
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#14] 23 Jun 2006
I just got off the phone with Andy Gensch, owner of Ballstars.
I appreciate his quick response.
Andy, as with yourself, elected not to mention the name of the account involved, although he did say that you neglected some of the facts in the matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. :-)
1) The account was landed through an associate of yours, with which you have other dealings within the chain. Once into the deal, the stores told your associate, "The economics weren't working out."
2) Your associate approached you, with that news, in order to make the numbers work. Couldn't be done.
3) Ballstars looked at the scenario, in a number of ways, working through you, to make the numbers work. Couldn't be done.
4) In order to keep the account, as a business move, your associate decided to negotiate directly with Ballstars; with your knowledge.
Ballstars did not approach the chain directly.
5) For your initial involvement, you were offered, by Ballstars, a percentage of each sale, in perpetuity; which you turned down.
===================================================
As our Zippo distributor pointed out, right or wrong, companies dealing directly with major accounts, has become the way of the world.
Once again, according to our Zippo friend, Zippo makes that fact plain in their contracts.
Although, as you say, Ballstars, to this point, makes no such claim in writing, Andy feels you were offered fair compensation for your involvement.
From: Button (LASERCHICK) [#16]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#1] 23 Jun 2006
I am with Mark on this one. I had a situation about a year ago that someone was getting prices from me, then called Ballstars and they told them they would sell wholesale to them. I contacted Ballstars and my distributor (Conde). My sales rep at Conde was furious with Ballstars and did everything he could. Ballstars made the excuse that they would only sell "a few" balls to someone for them to try the products and see about marketing it. My suggestion to Ballstars was that when someone needs wholesale products, they send the order to me, or someone else who has bought their system. I did end up finding out that they will sell as many as you order, and keep selling them to you. I upset me that I had to spend $10,000 on my system and then find out that they had started this.
Well, now this week I had someone approach me about purchasing 1000 balls. When I gave him a heck of a deal, he then called Ballstars and found that they will sell him the balls for $1.25 cheaper (per ball) than I can purchase the same amount of balls for! He is going to buy them direct from them and send them to me to make.
Ballstars is not only undercutting those who buy their systems but also their distributors! I have never been happy with any of my dealings with Ballstars and I think they are a dirty company!
What I did find out about Ballstars is:
1. They are desperate
2. They will undercut anyone
3. They will not take responsibility for their actions
4. You can't believe a word they say
From: precisionlaser [#17]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15] 23 Jun 2006
David,
Andy conveniently leaves a few things out of this:
1. Ballstars has no knowledge of what I can make work and can't make work. They made the decision ON THEIR OWN that the economics just couldn't work. I asked them for an additional discount to help make this work and they refused...nothing, nada, nil. I wonder why that was? The fact is that had they extended to me end quantity pricing (a reasonable assumption given the probable volume for this account), I could have met the chain's needs. They refused.
Now, it's true that I couldn't have competed with Ballstars on the pricing, but isn't that the issue?
2. Ballstars never "worked through me". We had exactly two calls...one to tell me that they thinking about quoting on this opportunity and one to tell me that they were taking the business. The last call is where I was refused any discounts, assistance or even willingness to buy back the inventory I had on hand. I was informed "we don't do that".
3. The assertion that I was offered a percentage of the sale is a lie. I was offered $0.25 per ball for "bringing the opportunity to their attention". WOW...a whole quarter. Yes, you get a "percentage of the sale" if you divide $0.25 by the sale of a ball, but when you consider that these balls have widely varying costs, the percentage is not fixed. I suspect that if he hadn't shaded the truth and told you that I would receive a shiny quarter for allowing them to steal the business, it might not have sounded so nice. I did turn it down because it was an insult.
4. If you read my previous posts, I never said they approached the chain...
The bottom line is that once Ballstars found out that one of their distributors had closed a major sale, they wanted it for themselves. They offered NO assistance to us and even when we asked if they would buy back their own inventory (which presumably they'd sell to this account), they refused. The FACTS of this are that we made a major (for us) investment, brought and sold the concept to our associates and launched the program. We deserved to keep it. Ballstars has conducted themselves in a shameful and unethical fashion, no matter what "the way of the world" has become. I stand by each letter of each previous post.
What they don't know yet is that their ability to pull this off will require my cooperation...guess how that's gonna turn out?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#18]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#17] 23 Jun 2006
I made Ballstars aware of this thread. If they have anything to add, I'd rather see them comment directly.
From: precisionlaser [#19]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#18] 23 Jun 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#20]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#19] 23 Jun 2006
I'm pretty sure there will be no direct response from Ballstars.
People will have to draw their own conclusions, which I'm sure many have.
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