Full Version: BallStars-Be Careful
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#14] 23 Jun 2006
I just got off the phone with Andy Gensch, owner of Ballstars.
I appreciate his quick response.
Andy, as with yourself, elected not to mention the name of the account involved, although he did say that you neglected some of the facts in the matter.
Don't shoot the messenger. :-)
1) The account was landed through an associate of yours, with which you have other dealings within the chain. Once into the deal, the stores told your associate, "The economics weren't working out."
2) Your associate approached you, with that news, in order to make the numbers work. Couldn't be done.
3) Ballstars looked at the scenario, in a number of ways, working through you, to make the numbers work. Couldn't be done.
4) In order to keep the account, as a business move, your associate decided to negotiate directly with Ballstars; with your knowledge.
Ballstars did not approach the chain directly.
5) For your initial involvement, you were offered, by Ballstars, a percentage of each sale, in perpetuity; which you turned down.
===================================================
As our Zippo distributor pointed out, right or wrong, companies dealing directly with major accounts, has become the way of the world.
Once again, according to our Zippo friend, Zippo makes that fact plain in their contracts.
Although, as you say, Ballstars, to this point, makes no such claim in writing, Andy feels you were offered fair compensation for your involvement.
From: Button (LASERCHICK) [#16]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#1] 23 Jun 2006
I am with Mark on this one. I had a situation about a year ago that someone was getting prices from me, then called Ballstars and they told them they would sell wholesale to them. I contacted Ballstars and my distributor (Conde). My sales rep at Conde was furious with Ballstars and did everything he could. Ballstars made the excuse that they would only sell "a few" balls to someone for them to try the products and see about marketing it. My suggestion to Ballstars was that when someone needs wholesale products, they send the order to me, or someone else who has bought their system. I did end up finding out that they will sell as many as you order, and keep selling them to you. I upset me that I had to spend $10,000 on my system and then find out that they had started this.
Well, now this week I had someone approach me about purchasing 1000 balls. When I gave him a heck of a deal, he then called Ballstars and found that they will sell him the balls for $1.25 cheaper (per ball) than I can purchase the same amount of balls for! He is going to buy them direct from them and send them to me to make.
Ballstars is not only undercutting those who buy their systems but also their distributors! I have never been happy with any of my dealings with Ballstars and I think they are a dirty company!
What I did find out about Ballstars is:
1. They are desperate
2. They will undercut anyone
3. They will not take responsibility for their actions
4. You can't believe a word they say
From: precisionlaser [#17]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15] 23 Jun 2006
David,
Andy conveniently leaves a few things out of this:
1. Ballstars has no knowledge of what I can make work and can't make work. They made the decision ON THEIR OWN that the economics just couldn't work. I asked them for an additional discount to help make this work and they refused...nothing, nada, nil. I wonder why that was? The fact is that had they extended to me end quantity pricing (a reasonable assumption given the probable volume for this account), I could have met the chain's needs. They refused.
Now, it's true that I couldn't have competed with Ballstars on the pricing, but isn't that the issue?
2. Ballstars never "worked through me". We had exactly two calls...one to tell me that they thinking about quoting on this opportunity and one to tell me that they were taking the business. The last call is where I was refused any discounts, assistance or even willingness to buy back the inventory I had on hand. I was informed "we don't do that".
3. The assertion that I was offered a percentage of the sale is a lie. I was offered $0.25 per ball for "bringing the opportunity to their attention". WOW...a whole quarter. Yes, you get a "percentage of the sale" if you divide $0.25 by the sale of a ball, but when you consider that these balls have widely varying costs, the percentage is not fixed. I suspect that if he hadn't shaded the truth and told you that I would receive a shiny quarter for allowing them to steal the business, it might not have sounded so nice. I did turn it down because it was an insult.
4. If you read my previous posts, I never said they approached the chain...
The bottom line is that once Ballstars found out that one of their distributors had closed a major sale, they wanted it for themselves. They offered NO assistance to us and even when we asked if they would buy back their own inventory (which presumably they'd sell to this account), they refused. The FACTS of this are that we made a major (for us) investment, brought and sold the concept to our associates and launched the program. We deserved to keep it. Ballstars has conducted themselves in a shameful and unethical fashion, no matter what "the way of the world" has become. I stand by each letter of each previous post.
What they don't know yet is that their ability to pull this off will require my cooperation...guess how that's gonna turn out?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#18]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#17] 23 Jun 2006
I made Ballstars aware of this thread. If they have anything to add, I'd rather see them comment directly.
From: precisionlaser [#19]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#18] 23 Jun 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#20]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#19] 23 Jun 2006
I'm pretty sure there will be no direct response from Ballstars.
People will have to draw their own conclusions, which I'm sure many have.
From: precisionlaser [#21]
23 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#20] 23 Jun 2006
From: UncleSteve [#22]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#17] 23 Jun 2006
Just out of curiosity (being nosey?), does Ballstars assign territories to their distributors or is it open season for anyone and everyone who can find a phone number?
From: precisionlaser [#23]
23 Jun 2006
To: UncleSteve [#22] 23 Jun 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24]
23 Jun 2006
To: precisionlaser [#21] 23 Jun 2006
The topic of industry suppliers, competing for our business, isn't a new one.
Where there used to be a line in the sand, now there is none.
We look forward to periodic updates, as you attempt to close the book on this matter.
From: bobkat [#25]
24 Jun 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#24] 24 Jun 2006
From: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#26]
24 Jun 2006
To: bobkat [#25] 24 Jun 2006
From: bobkat [#27]
24 Jun 2006
To: UCONN Dave & Lynn too (DANDL48) [#26] 25 Jun 2006
From: UncleSteve [#28]
24 Jun 2006
To: bobkat [#27] 24 Jun 2006
They may NOT win the suit, but you better be ready to pay for YOUR attorney if they decide to sue for damages. Especially if you were not a direct party to the incident and just a provocateur.
From: bobkat [#29]
24 Jun 2006
To: UncleSteve [#28] 24 Jun 2006
Show me an example of someone being sued for calling a boycott on a product, or service. Groups boycott things all the time. Right now, Jesse and Al are calling for a boycott of BP for price gouging. Christian groups call for a boycott of sponsors of TV programs they don't like. It is not illegal, and in the case of Jesse and Al (Jackson & Sharpton), it is a way to shake down these companies for money; they have been doing it for years.
A perfect example would be Bill Oreilly calling for a boycott of all French goods: if there was a lawsuit to be had, the French Govt. has plenty of money to bring the suit, and Fox news has plenty to lose.
EDITED: 24 Jun 2006 by BOBKAT
From: UncleSteve [#30]
24 Jun 2006
To: bobkat [#29] 24 Jun 2006
>NORWOOD FILES LAWSUIT
>
>INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA (March 2, 2004) -Norwood Promotional Products
>announced today that the company has filed a lawsuit in the U.S. Federal
>District Court for the Southern District of Indiana claiming violations of
>federal and state antitrust laws. The action was taken against a group of
>distributors in an effort to extinguish alleged anti-competitive activities
>conducted by named defendants that has damaged Norwood's ability to conduct
>business.
>
>CEO Tom Roller stated, "We are taking action against those distributors who
>have attempted to damage our company and to interfere with our right to do
>business. All other avenues have been exhausted. We are taking this and
>other steps to make sure that business within our industry can be conducted
>fairly and in accordance with the laws of this country."
The ball is in YOUR court now, Mr. Kat.... :P
From: bobkat [#31]
24 Jun 2006
To: UncleSteve [#30] 24 Jun 2006
I appreciate that, but that doesn't tell me what it is they allegedly did. Did they take on exclusive territories and tie up distributorships for large parts of the country and then refuse to either relinquish said distributorships or sell the product? That would effectively render Norwood impotent, and any distributorship contracts may prevent them from conducting business directly in those areas. Of course, I am only speculating, since the fact set was incomplete, but that is an entirely different animal than someone saying on an internet forum that they will refuse to buy any products from any particular company. We have no hold on this company to keep them from going out and doing business with anyone they choose. (Which is what the problem was in the first place). That is what constitutes anti-trust violations; the key being our having some legal ability to stop them from conducting business, and then banding together to do so.
If I used Ballstars products, and they did me like they did Mark, (allegedly), I would be 100% comfortable with my legal position in coming on here and saying "these guys engage in unethical business practices, (or sell substandard merchandise, or whatever), and I refuse to do business with them and you should too" My suggesting that anyone else boycott Ballstars (or whoever), is not binding on anyone here, and you can all tell me to go jump in the lake, (and some of you have!). Actually I HAVE said something very similar on here concerning "you know who". Back at ya :P
From: UncleSteve [#32]
24 Jun 2006
To: bobkat [#31] 24 Jun 2006
Starting to sound a bit familiar?
The supplier sued for attempting to destroy their company by badmouthing them and calling to stay away from them and any supplier that plays "both side of the street". Though the supplier eventually lost the final case, they put one (two?) of the distributors in bankruptcy because of the high cost of defending the suit and another managed to have his business insurance policy defend him and then drop him after the case was over.
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#33]
24 Jun 2006
To: bobkat [#25] 24 Jun 2006
Bobkat,
You do not want to go there. You may be 100% right, but do you have deep enough pockets to defend that belief?
From: bobkat [#34]
24 Jun 2006
To: UncleSteve [#32] 24 Jun 2006
Again, you have distributors who have contractual responsibilities with the company, working together to restrict the business of the company. Completely different than this scenario.
Anybody can sue you if they can find some crooked lawyer to take the case (and their money). Note also that they LOST the suit. If they sue me, all they will get is the debt on my equipment; you can't get blood out of a rock!
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