Full Version: CorelDRAW question
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#1]
28 Aug 2006
To: ALL
This stumps me; it may be a mental block. I've attached a file that I'm embarrassed to tell you how long I've been fighting; and, I really have no particular use for the file.
Some of you may recognize that it is (greatly simplified) this month's free download from berry baskets. Typically, I get these ready for laser "scroll sawing" JIC I ever have time to play. [shouldn't matter(?), but this was imported from a .PDF file]
I've saved the file in Corel 11 format just so a broader range of folks can take a look at it. I'm traveling with only X3 & 12 so the problem I'm about to describe has been confirmed only in those two versions.
Try combining these two objects. You should see a "hole," right? Do you? I don't! That is, it appears that the shape is not closed, but it is(?).
Since the center of the smaller object is apparently filled, you should be able to click in the midst of the smaller object and select *something,* right? So, it would appear that there really is the expected "hole" but Corel is not properly displaying(?). If printed (Laserjet), the output is the same as the display.
Can anyone explain this? Or, anything to be learned here?
EDITED: 29 Aug 2006 by DGL
From: Shaddy [#2]
28 Aug 2006
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#1] 29 Aug 2006
What the heck did you do to that shape?
I'm having the same issue. I added a square on top and combine and I could see the hole, see the background through the hole. When I combined the original shapes, just like you, it turned the same color as the larger shape. But it still "acted" like a hole because when i clicked in it, I was clicking the background. Then I put a square under the shape, and when I clicked where the "filled hole" is, the swuare got selected, just like it should when clicking through a hole. But it was filled...
very weird.
I think you broke it ;-)
Shaddy
From: Rodney Gold (RODNEY_GOLD) [#3]
28 Aug 2006
To: ALL
ungroup, give everything a black outline and no fill , select the inner shape and fill white , select order , select in front of , and select the back bigger shape , fill big shape and you get the big shape with a hole.
An even easier one click solution is to use the smart fill tool , just click on the big shape and you create and entity with a hole
Heres my solution saved as ver 11
From: gingem [#4]
28 Aug 2006
To: ALL
Hi Roy
Here is the fix. select the small piece in the center and then the node tool, on the toolbar you will see a selection to reverse the direction of the nodes. Just click that and then combine the parts and everything will work fine. I see this problem all of the time and I am not totally sure why but I am sure this is the fix.
From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#5]
29 Aug 2006
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#1] 29 Aug 2006
Bill Meyer is correct. You need to reverse the direction of one of the curves. Either one, doesn't matter. It should, but apparently, it doesn't. Did you manually trace the curve or was it created using CorelTrace?
You can quickly check the direction of the curves with the shape tool by clicking on a node and then use the TAB key to advance through the curve, node by node.
In 3D CAD models, the direction of the curve defines the normal to the curve/plane/surface. If you have any experience with the engineering/physics term, "Right Hand Rule", you'll see the corollary. Using your right hand, if you curl your fingers in the direction of the curve, your thumb will point in the direction of the normal vector to the curve. In 3D, it's the normal to the plane which should define visibility or opacity. In this case, I guess they just assume that you want the outside border to be visible and to remove the inside (ie any opposite pointing planes). I wonder how that will play if the file is transferred to a 3D system?
From: logojohn [#6]
29 Aug 2006
To: ALL
I had posted a similar problem with an example awhile back in this message:
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=3412.1
Nobody came up with a solution at that time.
I went back and tried your solution on the very complex shape and it worked right away after changing the direction.
It doesn't happen to me often but its nice to know what to do if it does.
.
EDITED: 29 Aug 2006 by LOGOJOHN
From: bruce (BBSD) [#7]
29 Aug 2006
To: logojohn [#6] 29 Aug 2006
Different solution- outlined the inner shape at .0001, breakapart, send new shape to back, select original-delete.
select all then combine.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#8]
29 Aug 2006
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#5] 29 Aug 2006
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#9]
29 Aug 2006
To: gingem [#4] 29 Aug 2006
Bill,
I'll be darned! How is it that I never saw that in Corel? Your solution is greatly appreciated.
Now that you explain it, Xenetech has a function to display and change direction of polylines and the older ScanVec programs used the direction when routing to determine which was the inside and which was the outside of the object for inlay applications. But, thousands (maybe 100s of 1000s) of times I've combined shapes from every conceivable source (I thought)and never had that happen; so, I didn't think the "clock sense" was relevant in Corel.
After reading your post, I spent more time than I have available to understand that a bit better, but I still am a little fuzzy on how it works. For instance,
create a square, fill with a color,
put a circle inside,
convert both to curves,
make duplicate of both and move aside
in one, select nodes in circle and reverse order
finally, combine them and regardless of direction, holes are in both
What's the difference between this and our sample problem?
EDITED: 29 Aug 2006 by ROYBREWER
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#10]
29 Aug 2006
To: Carl (CSEWELL) [#5] 29 Aug 2006
Carl,
The file I posted is the "least common denominator" of the problem I had when I downloaded the free monthly scroll saw pattern from http://www.berrybasket.com
After reworking the file a bit, I thought one final "Combine" would finish it off and much to my surprise, 1/2 of the "holes" were not "holes."
Bill's explanation makes sense because whatever/whoever created the graphic obviously mirrored the other 1/2 and changed "clock wise sense" in the process(?).
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#11]
29 Aug 2006
To: logojohn [#6] 30 Aug 2006
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=3412.1
John,
I missed that post or forgot that I read it. Turns out Harvey had already given us the solution, but evidently talked himself out of it(?).
From: Johnny Orange (LIFETIME) [#12]
29 Aug 2006
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#1] 30 Aug 2006
Roy
I've opened up the image and had a play with it. My question to you is what are you actually trying to achieve with the image.
It may sound a dumb question and reading all the posts I'm still none the wiser
Can you enlighten please >.<
From: gingem [#13]
29 Aug 2006
To: ALL
Hi Roy
I have not played around with it since I found the solution. You will find this happening a lot with text converting it to curves and then combining. The holes in some letters take on the parent fill and then you have to break them reverse the inner and then combine them again. The reason a lot of people do not have this problem is that most do not use the combine command but just fill the inner portions with white to make it appear to be empty.
I do a lot of logo work and find this happening quite often with text. There are a lot of little quirks and specialty things in Corel that can make your life so much easier when you take the time to find them. Have you ever tried to group or combine some items that one or more have things inside of them that makes it harder to select with just using a marquee select? If while selecting items with the marquee toll you hold down the alternate key, instead of having to surround an object to select it all you have to do is touch it and it becomes selected. Great when you have a lot of detail and need to select some of them. Give it a try!
From: Carl (CSEWELL) [#14]
30 Aug 2006
To: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#10] 30 Aug 2006
And, therefore, another mirror should fix the problem also. I tried it on your file. I mirrored the outside shape and was able to combine the two objects with the middle object being a hole. This is another 'fix' that is probably easier to implement when you have at least one axis of symmetry.
Thanks.
From: Pedaler (ROYBREWER) [#15]
30 Aug 2006
To: Johnny Orange (LIFETIME) [#12] 30 Aug 2006
It's not something that I couldn't make work, it was my curiosity as to the strange behavior.
I had never before seen this behavior, both Bill and logoJohn say they've seen this many times. This a part of what they do for a living and probably do much more of this type work than I. While the fixes provided will be remembered and passed on to others in the future, I still want to understand why this only happens on some occasions. I have several suspicions, but not the time to devote to them.