Full Version: What is the most efficient way to handle this job??
From: joyce (JLADY) [#1]
11 Sep 2006
To: ALL
I have a large job that I am looking for ways to do it the fastest, luckily I have 1 month to finish. I typically don't take large jobs, (we talk them into laser) but because I had a month I decided to take it.
1" x 1.5" brass with oxidizer
Burnishing
No tape
3 characters on each, numbered consecutively
460 Pieces
Any suggestions on how to tackle this. I was going to shoot for 30 a day, cut them, engrave individually then oxidize/pack 30 at a time.
Will laying the material butt up against each other and engraving all at once work??
EDITED: 11 Sep 2006 by JLADY
From: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2]
11 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#1] 11 Sep 2006
I would hope you could do 30 ++++ a day.
Engrave (Burnish) as many as possible on a single sheet of brass as a matrix job with sequencial numbering and scoring. cut and oxidize or vers visa. pack and ship.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#3]
11 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#1] 11 Sep 2006
We would use sublimatable brass or aluminum, and have it done in about a day. Pressing time would take about 30-45 mins with 30 6"x12" sheets with 16 images on them. Cutting and packaging time would take the largest amount of labor in that scenario.
If they require burnishing and oxidising, I would run the job multiple up, then cut them apart later as was suggested in the last post. This should help your efficiency.
The goal should be to have a piece ready for the Engraver as soon as it is done with the last. Never have the engraver sitting idle.....If that takes doing them one after another with no time for anything in between....take the time to do it that way. My guess is that with enough images on one sheet that you will have time to oxidize and possibly even finish cut the pieces coming off the engraver while the piece on the machine is running.
Hope this helps.... Do 30 mins to an hour worth of production testing to get your average speed, and You'll have a pretty good idea as to how long it will take to get all 480 done if you do the division of how many the job is for, by what you produced in that hour.
Hope this helps,
From: joyce (JLADY) [#4]
11 Sep 2006
To: ALL
If I do as many possible on one sheet, my concern is the cutting.
When I have tried that in the past, my cutter either cuts just inside or outside the cut marks, What I have done in the past is make the plates a hair bigger and cut just inside the hair to get the exact measurement (or try). And then I have had to do a fair amount of trimming on each one and that almost seems like more hassle than to have to do 1 at a time.
From: joyce (JLADY) [#5]
11 Sep 2006
To: PenTrophy (PENINSULATROPHY) [#2] 11 Sep 2006
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#6]
11 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#4] 11 Sep 2006
We are fortunate enough to have a micro adjust backgauge on our shear. We can adjust it to within a few thousanths one way or another....so it's not difficult to run and cut without marks at all.
It may take a bit of effort, but if you have a manual adjusting backgauge, you may be able to set it accurately with a bit of trial and error. If your going by eye and marks, I agree that it will be a slow process.
Depending on how fast your engraver cuts though...you may have enough time to do the cutting by eye between pieces. With this job, alot of the efficiency of the production depends on the shear and shearing setup that you have.
Brian
From: joyce (JLADY) [#7]
11 Sep 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#6] 11 Sep 2006
From: logojohn [#8]
11 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#1] 12 Sep 2006
We do engraving oxidized all the time.
The easiest way is to use laserable alumamark sublimate them or OEM laser transfer on brass. But if they will not accept that or you don't do those things here are some suggestions from our trial and errors.
Your best bet is to forget about burnishing.
With only 3 letters they likely want large numbers readable from a distance.
Oxidizing will not adhere well to burnished numbers that big. They will look greyish, cloudly and the oxidizer will easily rub off of the smooth surface.
Since you have a Xenetech, you can do this job easily. You can set up to run several on a single sheet and shear them out later or precut them to size.
Use a regular non-rotating diamond drag cutter.
For thick large letters, use a truetype font and use the hatch fill. This will take longer than burnishing but is much less problemic. You don't need to babysit to verify quality. We frequently set up such jobs and let them run through lunch or even after we leave for the day.
I find it easier to just engrave a box the size of the plate with the layout. Leave about .15 space between the plates. Use a shear to completely cut off the box from all sides of the plate leaving no trace of guide marks. If you want, you can also do the same with the grid cutout option.
When oxidizing large areas of diamond drag engraving that has been hatch filled follow this procedure we have developed for bullet proof quality results. Trust me. We do many satin brass plates that are 12x15 and have logos and letters up to 1" tall.
1. Apply Oxidizer using small acid brush or fussy brush. Brush in thoroughly. Let sit a couple minutes.
2. Wipe off with paper towel or rag. Apply a second time to assure a black letter when viewed at all angles. Let sit a couple more minutes.
3. Wash off thoroughly with water, windex or lighterfluid. If not washed thoroughly chemical reaction many continue and over time may breakdown the laquer coating surrounding the letters or degrade the black letters.
Here is a typical Xenetech layout we use for similar jobs showing the multiple plate setup, guide box for shearing and hatch fill used.
.
EDITED: 11 Sep 2006 by LOGOJOHN
From: joyce (JLADY) [#9]
12 Sep 2006
To: logojohn [#8] 12 Sep 2006
Thanks for that info, it is very helpful (also for the file). I am into this 80 pieces but decided to start over and hatch fill like you said.
But I have a stupid question...
when cutting those pieces do you stack them up at the cutter with tissue between them as not to scratch them and transport back to work area....I know this is a stupid question....but
From: logojohn [#10]
12 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#9] 13 Sep 2006
If they need tape applied or more work done on them like holes or corners, it many times is faster to just lay them out side by side on something flat like cardboard or engraving plastic. If you are careful not to slide them around, you can even stack the flat cardboard on top of each other. Or put paper towel or tissue over each layer to be sure.
Another method is to take long narrow strips of tissue or paper towel and roll them up as you cut. I don't like that as well since it seems like more work to unroll them but may work better if you don't have a lot of room by the engraver.
Most of the time we shear them after engraving. If we precut larger plaque plates before engraving, we just leave the protective mask on and peel it right before feeding the engraver.
.
From: joyce (JLADY) [#11]
18 Sep 2006
To: ALL
Ok, so I am 1/2 way thru this job, used logo johns suggestion, hatch filled, using a .10 diamond burnisher.
Well I am not real happy with the results, for one it is taking forever almost 2 hrs to engrave a 11 x 11 sheet.
Using oxidizer is a real pain, when it drys alot of it looks cloudy, I have given it 2 coats (sometimes 3 coats), rinsed with water etc. I tried pledge as that was recommended to brighten it, it looks dull and cloudy.
Did I not rinse enough, should I rinse more now after sitting 2 days, should I do another coat of oxidizer?
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#12]
18 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#11] 18 Sep 2006
Oxidized brass rarely looks jet black. A dark grey may be as good as it gets.
Mineral deposits in water can also leave a chalky appearance.
From: logojohn [#13]
18 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#11] 19 Sep 2006
Even a small tip burnisher leaves a flat surface which doesn't oxidize well. The diamond tip leaves minute grooves which hold the oxidizer better.
The oxidizer sticks better and doesn't get the greyish look.
Are your hatch lines disconnected. That would cause a cutter up after each hatch an be time consuming.
Also in the hatch setup are your lines closer together than needed and just overlapping and wasting time.
With a diamond drag in auto sensing mode, you can set the z stroke to as little as .05. It looks like the cutter isn't coming up between letters at all but it is and drastically speeds up the time. This can reduce the time by over half vs. a .15 z stroke.
You can also optimize the updown speeds z delay and xy speed.
If you want to reply and attach your xot layout I can take a look and make some suggestions. I can tweak it to run faster with the diamond burnisher to so you don't have to start over again. But you may still have problems with the oxidizing.
.
From: rj (RANDYJOYCE) [#14]
18 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#11] 19 Sep 2006
Joyce
Did you oxidize immediately after engraving? It is best ot oxidize within minutes after engraving before "natural" oxidation starts and prevents the metal from going dark. Also oil or wax after oxidize and drying to get darker color.
Also be sure material is oil free before engraving and DON'T touch the engraing with any thing oily like a human hand or shop towel.
From: joyce (JLADY) [#15]
19 Sep 2006
To: logojohn [#13] 19 Sep 2006
I am attaching the file. Thanks for helping me.
The reason I went with the diamond burnisher is I tried the regular diamond and the edges were real bad, I had to do an outline with the burnisher just to get a good clean edge. Not sure why, maybe my cutter was bad?? So I went with the diamond burnisher, I was able to get a good clean character.
EDITED: 18 Oct 2006 by JLADY
From: logojohn [#16]
19 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#15] 19 Sep 2006
I didn't see anything major that would improve the time for your layout.
With 50+ plates with 3 large letters, 2.2 minutes per plate is not that bad for burnishing.
The one with lj1 at the end is the changes I made but wont make a lot of difference.
Change 1. I noticed the drag is checked instead of route. If you don't want to manually turn the motor for the burnisher on and off you can use route.
Change 2. I get better results with the "sort" box Unchecked in the hatch filled setup. If you don't see a variance in the way the finished letters look, just leave it your way. With the sort unchecked the hatch will always go from left to right top to bottom.
Especially plates that are not oxidized will reflect the light differently when some hatches are engraved top to bottom and then hatches around the other part of a "C" or other letter that can't be done continuously engrave bottom to top.
The one with lj2 at the end are those changes plus some that might be faster in setting up your numbers. I see they are separate so you could arrange them manually. Arial black and some other ttype fonts do not center vertically or horizontally because of the white space in the font.
It isn't noticeable on large pieces but as you know it is on these with small margins.
I created a red centered box in the layout for manually adjusting the left and right margins. Most numbers will center with the 1st plate in the layout. I use the [text][serilization]menu to fill out the numbers. I then go through and alter the ones that are not centered. Usually the only ones needing adjusting are when there is a 1 and the beginning or end.
I have turned the engrave by color on. I have set the black to engrave 1st and the red to not engrave so you don't need to remove the red box before sending to engrave. If you load saved defaults with the job it should turn it on. Check that the engrave by color is checked before sending so the box doesn't engrave.
If the spacing between any 2 nmbers in to close or far apart you can permanently and easily correct it. This takes a little time at first but remember it only needs to be done once for each font.
In the menu select [misc] [editINIfiles]
scroll through the list and select you font name including bold or not etc.
if you want two numbers closer together enter a line that reads for example:
10=+70
this controls the space between 1 and 0
+70 REMOVES about 1/4 space.
You can exit, redraw the screen and view the change and repeat if necessary.
example
44=-20
this controls the space between 4 and 4
-20 adds about 1/8 of a space between letters.
redraw screen view and make more changes if needed.
This sounds complicated but with a little practice it is quick and remember you only have to make the change once for each font.
It will be faster than manually doing 3 numbers and you can save time by using the serilization.
.
From: joyce (JLADY) [#17]
19 Sep 2006
To: logojohn [#16] 19 Sep 2006
I never knew about the text/serialization, wow that is a huge time saver.
I knew about the edit/ini but never tried it, it seemed to complicated but one of these days I will. Anyway thanks for the advise, next time I will for sure use a diamond drag.
I didn't charge enough for this (only 1.00 each) but that is another issue, I originally was going to charge .75 each (but then I was going to burnish a single line font).
He said are you sure it is .75 each, I said yes, he went silent and I said is that good or bad, he said are you sure .75 each.....
Well he had got quotes locally, the lowest was 2.75 each and said he will go with me but I should raise it to 1.00 each. Ha Ha, now I want to raise it to 2.00 each (not this order, next time...he is threatening more work!!).
From: logojohn [#18]
19 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#17] 20 Sep 2006
There are so many goodies in the Xenetech software I still haven't found them all after 10 years.
One of my favorites and biggest time savers is you can customize the mouse right click menu.
You can have the things you use most show up instantly with a right click.
There are different right click menus, depending on what is selected.
Nothing
one item
multiple items
For example the even space selected lines would be worthles if nothing or only one item is selected so I don't have it added there, just in the multiple item right click menu.
For truetype I wouldn't touch it for under $3-$4 dollars.
I recently did 1500 1x3 sublimated plates which is a lot quicker and got $2 each.
Would laser them for about the same or engraved with a quick engraving font but not true type.
Boring orders like that are actually the most lucrative thing we do even at quantity pricing. $3000 in a couple days with under $100 in materials . . bring it on!
.
EDITED: 19 Sep 2006 by LOGOJOHN
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19]
19 Sep 2006
To: joyce (JLADY) [#1] 20 Sep 2006
Joyce,
If this customer is threatening more work (a good thing) and expecting low prices, for relatively involved, time-consuming engraving processes (a bad thing) I'd offer suitable alternatives, which, while not compromising the impact/quality of the plate, would be less labor-intensive.
Brian suggested sublimation.
Considering the requirements:
1) Brass Plate
2) Large Dark Letters/Numbers
3) Sequential Numbering
If the plates will be used indoors and if there isn't a specific requirement that the plates be burnished/oxidized, I'd agree.
From: logojohn [#20]
19 Sep 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#19] 19 Sep 2006
1) Brass Plate
The satin brass I get from ID plates does not sublimate well. The transfer paper sticks to the plate with the heat/press time needed for a good imprint. And the metal color is so saturated that it tends to cast a yellowish tint on any colors other than black. But if a lighter brushed gold sublimateable aluminum is acceptable, that would be the ideal choice.
Since Joyce has a laser but not sublimation equipment, even with the high cost of gold alumamark vs. the long engraving time of truetype letters, it would be a good choice for gold/black letters.
I had some success with OEM laser transfer on laserable plastic and acrylic so it might also work if the customer needed real satin brass. I haven't had time to try it yet.
3) Sequential Numbering
The Xenetech software Joyce has can also be used to print out sublimation or OEM laser toner transfers in black or basic colors. You could set the size of the single plate and set the size of the multiple plate to a little under a page size of 8.5x11. You can enter a distance between plates for shearing off the guide marks, leaving no sign of them when cut off from both directions.
Use the serilization option and it would create a batch of several pages automatically that could be sent to the printer at once. This was a hugh time saving over coreldraw when we did the 1500 numbered plates.
Any of the above would look much better than trying to get a deep even black letter from oxidizing, especially with burnished letters.
EDITED: 19 Sep 2006 by LOGOJOHN
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