Full Version: Need basic embroidery lesson
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1]
14 Sep 2006
To: ALL
We have moved to a larger store this year and are able to add more personalized gifts and have been outsourcing embroidery. We sell embroidered blankets, backpacks, laundry bags, aprons, etc that we have our guy embroider for us but don't want to do apparel necessarily (especially that requiring stocking differents sizes and styles of shirts and stuff). Because of what our store has become, we get lots of calls for people looking to have something embroidered like towels, Xmas stockings and little stuff. We have to send these people to the guy that I've been using.
He informed me yesterday that his machine was terminally damaged and he's 72 years old and thinking about packing it in. This gave me the opportunity to mention to him that I'm thinking about buying my own machine which he was relieved to hear - I think he was worried where he would leave us and offered to help us get set up. I was worried about leaving him in the lurch if I got my own and looking like a competitor. He owns a Melco and is really disappointed in the support that he is currently getting and doesn't recommend them. He said that I should make sure to get cap-sewing capability because he does lots of them and would send them to us. He also said to be careful because setting up certain machines for switching between caps and flat stuff can be really complicated.
How I arrived at buying my 2 Xenetechs was to talk to people that owned engravers. I owned a New Hermes that I bought used that I was struggling to learn and run and the Xenetech made engraving a breeze. I hope to get a quick embroidery lesson here and some idea of what machines people have and what their advantages/drawbacks are.
I see us doing mostly personalization in our store of onesy-twosies at first and playing the more complicated stuff by ear later on.
I would prefer to buy a machine that is new with up-to-date software and support and since I don't know anything about embroidery, one that is relatively easy to run and to train others to run. I will probably lease it and my leasing company said that they will work with me on a used machine but only if purchased from a dealer. They couldn't lease on a private-party deal. I can also pay cash but would prefer to lease - so a private party purchase isn't out of the question. I just need to know at what age are the features in the used machine not current enough - if that makes sense.
I like the drag-and-drop feature of Xenetech's software and I'm not sure how embroidery works. Does one need to do their own digitizing for things like simple names and monograms or is that generally already set up and ready to go?
Any basic information about the embroidery process would be helpful - like what's a hoop and how many does one need to have - as well as opinions about machines and what bells and whistles are need-to-haves and what are nice-to-haves?
From: chuck (SCS_CHUCK) [#2]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 14 Sep 2006
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#3]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 14 Sep 2006
Colin,
I am not sure if Rebecca has sold her Barudan machine, but this would be a great opportunity for you to get into a current one-head machine for a great price.
Here is a link to her "For Sale" thread. In a subsequent post I included a link that gave more technical information about the unit.
http://www.engravingetc.org/forum/index.php?webtag=EE&msg=4756.1
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#4]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 14 Sep 2006
Colin,
Ah, your path sounds similar to mine. I also have Xenetech machines (Rotary & Laser). I built the embroidery business like you, subbing it out at first, but wanted more control of timelines & quality. I bought a Single head Single needle Brother from a friend and made do for quite awhile. I then looked at all brands of machines and settled on SWF for the size, price, and value. It comes with Design Maxx software, fairly easy to learn. One thing the SWF machine came out with recently is their Cap Frame now just slides on the machine just like any of the hoops, where before, I think most machines were like this also, you had to unscrew several bolts switch out the frames screw them back on and then put on the cap frame. Not that long of time, usually 5 minutes, but now it just takes a couple seconds. Approx. $2,000 retro fit for my machine, I think I will wait.
This past March I bought DrawWings digitizing software from COREL, It is like night and day from the competition (kind of the way Xenetech is). It is based on vector images and will digitize a logo in a couple of seconds. Almost WYSIWYG. Compatible with all major embroidery formats.
This is my biased opinion of different brands of machines:
Barudan - Top of the line - Expensive
Brother - Very good & reliable, behind the times in features.
Melco - Trying to push the Amaya too hard, which I have not used but did not like the demo machine.
Happy - not impressed with demo
Toyota - Only saw 1 demo - ?????
ZSK - German machine I was fairly impressed with but decided on the SWF since I had not heard of this brand before & was concerned about support.
SWF - Very good machine and fairly solid, Made in Tiawan & it appears it was copied from Brother designs. They have compact models and larger frames as well. Very good support for the machine as well as software.
Let me know if you need more info........
;-)
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#5]
14 Sep 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#3] 14 Sep 2006
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#6]
14 Sep 2006
To: John (ICTJOHN) [#4] 14 Sep 2006
A couple of questions. Do you need to be able to digitize to run the embroiderer or does the software that comes with the machine have built-in fonts, etc. where you can see it on the screen, manipulate it for size inside the software and send to the embroiderer?
Do you generally need to run with a PC or are the electronics driving the machine built-in?
From: UncleSteve [#7]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#5] 14 Sep 2006
Under the circumstances, I am sure Charlie (?) will give you straight answers. May not be what you want to hear, but then again it may be just perfect for you.....
Can't hurt to call and talk!!!!
From: John (ICTJOHN) [#8]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#6] 15 Sep 2006
Colin,
Different manufactures handle things differently but some will only read your file from a floppy and some will get it via an ethernet or USB connection.
The embroidery machines will generally only read the file in and do a few tasks but not digitizing functions.
Generally, digitizing will be done on your PC/Laptop in a standalone software package, then you will transfer the digitized file to the embroidery machine. So, once the file is transfer to your embroidery machine, your PC/Laptop can be used for other applications and is not tied up.
hth,
From: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9]
14 Sep 2006
To: UncleSteve [#7] 14 Sep 2006
From: UncleSteve [#10]
14 Sep 2006
To: Engravin' Dave (DATAKES) [#9] 14 Sep 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11]
14 Sep 2006
To: chuck (SCS_CHUCK) [#2] 15 Sep 2006
Chuck,
This is an Engraving Etc. board, with the "Etc." representing the many and varied processes used in the modern awards and engraving industry, of which embroidery is one.
I don't know if we have any Mensa members here, but I think most of us could follow your explanations. :-)
I wish your wife a quick and complete recovery.
From: Liberty [#12]
14 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 15 Sep 2006
Colin,
Our business started nearly 20 years ago on the embroidery side. We've owned four different brands over the years and still own two different brands, four machines, 15 heads all together. We started out going after the personalization market and very quickly made a sharp turn into the mid-sized garment orders. (4 to 144 pieces)
I will sum up my recomendations and you can feel free to call me if you'd like me to elaborate. (But please don't call until next week - we're buried alive with Friday delivery promises) 513-755-8740
Machines - I am so surprised noone mentioned Tajima. In my opinion, nothing else compares with the exception of possibly Baradun. The tajima's are easy to operate, fast, reliable and the service and support from Hirsch is great, at least here in Ohio. Everyone else tries to be like Tajima. If you go to the trade shows you will hear all kinds of claims like (quiet as a tajima or fast as a tajima. The SWF mentioned earlier is actually a Tajima clone. Well heck - why buy the generic? One tip - go and visit the larger production shops out there, the ones that handle contract work and run hundreds of heads all day every day. The overwhelming majority are Tajima shops. Look at the prices of used machines and you'll see the tajimas hold their value far and away better than the others - it's not even close.
Software - you will need at least a good lettering and editing program. I wouldn't own anything other than Wilcom and their ES21E and ES21D programs are affordable and you can upgrade to their digitizing software as you grow. Pulse makes a good package as well and it is sold by Hirsch so your support would be one-stop if you also bought Tajima. Drawings has been mentioned and we own it as well but I have to tell you if you were to only own one piece of embroidery software, Drawings should not be it. The latest version is a huge improvement but the output from most vector files is not production ready and not up to reasonable quality standards. Once you are more embroidery wise and can handle some design editing then Drawings is a very nice addition to the arsenal.
New vs Used - I have two machines for sale right now but to be completely honest, given your situation I would recommend buying new just to get the training and support for your first machine. It doesn't sound like price is your primary consideration and that is usually the reason for buying used. (I must admit my latest machine was a repo - only a year old, like new and saved me almost 15,000 over the cost of an identical new machine.
Digitizing - I would never recommend starting out trying to digitize your own custom designs. Once you learn how embroidery works and what direction your business takes, then you can decide to add it later. Start of with good lettering and editing software and farm out your cusotm digitizing. There are several great sources online for very fast and affordable custom digitizing. If you are focusing on presonaization, the lettering and editing features are more important. Also, buy a basic stock design collection. A good one will cost you a few thousand dollars but you can't sell the onesy-twosey market without stock designs.
Bells and whistles - Hoops are the frames that hold the item being sewn. You slide the hoop onto the arms of the machine and htre machine pantograph moves the garment under the needle. Especially if you are planning to focus on personalization you will need a variety of hoops and frames. At a minimum you need the four basic sizes of round hoops, one or two larger shirt front and jacket back hoops, hat frame and driver. I personally think the 270 degree hat option is a waste and prefer the Hoop Tech hat frames available on the secondary market. Hoop Tech also makes a great series of hoopless clamps that are an incredible time saver and worth every penny of their seemingly high price. And don't forget that with hoops, you will need two of each size for each head. One running on the machine and another being prepared for the next run. The object is to keep the needles going up and down. Idle machines generate zero revenue.
Features - at a minimum for a single head machine... 15 needles, no less than 1000 stitches per minute (but be careful about manufacturer claims in this regard) large sewing fields for jacket backs, upper thread and bobbin thread break sensors, Quick changeover from hats to flats. And depending upon where your business is located and how you are setup - don't overlook the machines noise output. There are several machine out today that are so noisey you can't carry on a conversation within 10 feet. The noise issue is the number one reason we first switched to tajima.
Training - learning embroidery is not easy. There are a lot of variables that don;t exist in engraving (and vice versa) If your business is running well, maybe you should consider hiring a machine operator with experience? (But be careful as most experienced operators that come from the production shops will be of little help with your personaization business - you are going to get some off the wall requests and the ability to be creative with hooping and framing is a must) There are several trade shows put on by Impressions and EMB magazine (www.issshows.com) and they have a seminar called "Startup Decorator" that would be money well spent.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
From: chuck (SCS_CHUCK) [#13]
15 Sep 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#11] 15 Sep 2006
Dave...
I wasn't concerned about people understanding me since most of the folks on this board run circles around the average person.
We live in St Clair County, Illinois--right next to Madison County. Almost all of the legal watchdogs have declared this area the lawsuit capital of the US. As a result, I am reluctant to post anything that is a negative comment about either dealers or manufacturers. It just happens that I have some very negative comments in both areas when it comes to embroidery. I'll post an answer to Colin and keep it positive....Thanks
From: chuck (SCS_CHUCK) [#14]
15 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 15 Sep 2006
Colin
First things first...Liberty gave you just about the best and most complete answer you could receive. I'll just add a couple of points.
Go to the trade shows and see the various brands first hand. Don't belive everything you hear a salesman say.
Machines - Tajima is a workhorse...I wish we had gone with Tajima out of the chute. We are running the older Melco (pre-Amaya) and Brother equipment. My sister-in-law has SWF. I would have no problem buying Tajima, Brother or SWF. Your first machine should be new, only after you are comfortable with the machinery should you consider used equipment.
Dealer - Just as important as the brand. Sometimes the sales rep will have to do battle with the manufacturer on your behalf regarding things that should be warranty items. My wife actually called tech support for each brand we were considering after our original purchase to see how long it took for a response.
Software - I totally agree with Liberty. Most industry experts agree that you should run designs for a year before you think about digitizing. It truly is an art and there is a lot to learn about push, pull, and density. You need at least an editing level -- you would not believe how many bad stock designs are out there. We are partial to Wilcom and use their ES-65 top of the line. Hey, it was either that or a new car so we got the software. At the trade shows you will hear salesmen say that their software is as good as Wilcom...hmmmmm
Hoops - Almost all cap frames from the mfrs are poor -- go with Hoop Tech and get either their hooping stand or something from P&F. Look into hooping systems -- a board (stand) and hoops that are made for each other. Hooping is just about the most important part of the process for turning out good embroidery. Check out the weird looking hoops, too. We do custom work and would be lost without our collection of special purpose hoops.
No matter which way you go, hands-on training is critical -- forget lectures for your initial training. You'll need training on the machine, the software, and how to hoop. Get different types of fabric and practice with it. Allow 2 or 3 months to come up to speed.
Good Luck
EDITED: 15 Sep 2006 by SCS_CHUCK
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
15 Sep 2006
To: chuck (SCS_CHUCK) [#13] 6 Nov 2006
Chuck,
I appreciate the information you're providing.
I think it's important to have an excellent working knowledge, of as many processes as possible, in order to be ultimately credible before our customers, regardless of which processes we perform in-house.
Between your previous post and Liberty's, this has become a very informative thread (no pun intended, this time) :-)
EDITED: 15 Sep 2006 by DGL
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#16]
16 Sep 2006
To: ALL
From: sunny (SUNSHINE5555) [#17]
17 Sep 2006
To: Colin (MATROPHY) [#1] 18 Sep 2006
Sorry to be so late to the discussion. I haven't sold my machine yet.
Barudan is known for having machines that almost never break unless the operator does something dumb (like hit a hoop). Charlie (my rep) has a tech that can answer your questions over the phone most of the time and walk you through whatever needs to be done. As for price, they are comparably priced to Tajima or Toyota.
I know Charlie would schedule training for you (for a price of course). He knows I am selling my machine. I am sure the rep in your area would do the same.
Barudan has a 270 hat frame that makes doing hats a breeze.
As for your question about Tajima responding - I could never get anyone to return my calls and at shows they never seemed interested in answering my questions.
Helen Hart Momsen ( http://www.helenhart.com/index.html ) has a set of books she wrote about embroidery that are wonderful. They are well worth the money. I wish they had been out when we started, it would have saved us tons of money.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18]
18 Sep 2006
To: sunny (SUNSHINE5555) [#17] 18 Sep 2006
From: sunny (SUNSHINE5555) [#19]
18 Sep 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#18] 19 Sep 2006
From: Colin (MATROPHY) [#20]
20 Sep 2006
To: ALL
The more I think about it, I am reluctant to take on a large $ burden with the volume of embroidery that we currently have. The guy that I was using for embroidery is encouraging me to pursue starting with a new machine but one that is simple and pretty small. Based on what he has done for us so far, he feels that us buying a new machine for $15 - $18 K is too much for us right now.
He and I have had long discussions about where our business might be going once we purchase a machine and as a result of those conversations, I am reluctant to take on a lot of wholesale work in order to help pay for the new machine. I could take over many of his customers but most are low to medium volume with the expectation of paying low prices.
The question for this group is whether anyone has any experience with a small machine - I don't know that they exist - but maybe one that is more for a small amount of embroidery on small items. I know that there are home sewing machines that do embroidery and that doesn't seem like a good thing but are there any machines that are in the middle of these home ones and what I would call an industrial machine?
I am going to the SGIA show in Vegas next week - originally to look at Tajima and Barudan - but if there other machines I should look at while I'm there, I'd love to hear about them.
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