Full Version: America's Future
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#1]
6 Oct 2006
To: ALL
Typically I try not to bring up matters of politics on boards and in groups which do not have a political slant. However, in this instance... I'm just going to say that I very strongly feel that every citizen, right and left, of this great United States needs to be aware of where we are going and what is being done in our names. And I'm just going to leave it at that.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR511542006
Best regards,
Sei
From: UncleSteve [#2]
7 Oct 2006
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#1] 7 Oct 2006
I agree that the bad policies being pushed into bad law is unacceptable.
If the terrorists and their supporters can't be used to get information to save the lives of others and find the leaders, the $$ and lives of those on the battlefield trying to protect us should be saved and just shoot them when they show up instead of capturing, transporting, feeding, clothing and pampering them....... :O
From: bobkat [#3]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
Absolutely!
These people are not traditional war-fighters; they kill civilians at random, and in heinous ways. They are not being "tortured" just because they are made uncomfortable, or have dogs barking at them. Most of these people were captured on the battlefield SHOOTING AT US! If you want to know what REAL torture is, watch the videotaped beheadings, or the aftermath of the suicide bombers and all of the mangled bodies. I am tired of hearing about how these people should have rights and be afforded protection under the Geneva Convention. These rabid dogs need to be dealt with swiftly, surely, and harshly. I'm with Uncle Steve, if we can't get information out of them, they serve no purpose and should be shot on the battlefield.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4]
7 Oct 2006
To: bobkat [#3] 9 Oct 2006
Bobkat,
How did we get to this point?
After all, the battle plan for Iraq was very simple:
1) Militarily topple the government.
2) Replace it with a democracy.
3) The people of the country thank the U.S.
Straight out of a John Wayne movie.
Maybe a little brushing up on the history of the region and the experience Britain had (approx. 100 yrs. ago) in trying to occupy the country would have been helpful.
Nawww...that runs counter to the Hollywood Cowboy handbook.
EDITED: 7 Oct 2006 by DGL
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#5]
7 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#4] 7 Oct 2006
The British lost the Revolutionary War because they refused to abandon the square and fight like we did.
We must LEARN and not hold ourselves superior in these true battles.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6]
7 Oct 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#5] 7 Oct 2006
Harvey,
We need to learn to avoid true battles.
Being hypocrites is a major cause. We've become very good at it.
EDITED: 7 Oct 2006 by DGL
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#7]
7 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#6] 7 Oct 2006
With it he has bankrupted the country of its treasury and its morality.
From: UncleSteve [#8]
7 Oct 2006
To: Mike (MIKEN) [#7] 7 Oct 2006
When the moron WAS in the White House, he was more interested in a BJ from ML than going after the SOB responsible for over 4 attacks on our assests and troops...... Thus drawing us into a war that we would have neither wanted or needed if the job was done with the first attack on the WTC or the USS Cole!
It has nothing to do with party affiliation.... They all stink!
It is all ego when anyone reaches the position of president.
From: Sei (SEIMA) [#9]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
The reason the Iraqi people didn't treat us a liberators as Mr. Cheney once believed is simple. No matter how much you train your soldiers, they are still not entirely under your control.
By creating a false link to the terrorist attacks this government gave the soldiers an outlet for revenge. Instead of coming is as humanitarian aid, they came in as a wave of retribution against a foe who had nothing to due with the cause for their anger.
This intial stigma created in falsehood has poisoned anything else we try to do in Iraq and has insured that the people will treat Americans like a pack of mad dogs let run wild rather than the liberators we may have once tried to be.
And to those who say we must stoop to their tactics, no that is the last thing we must do. If we run the same path as those who resort to torture, we are no better than them, and your name, my name, our children's names are on every act and every bomb that the officials we elected lob across the borders of sanity.
Sei
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#10]
7 Oct 2006
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#9] 7 Oct 2006
Who here said that torture was OK? They are getting far better treatment than the Geneva Convention calls for. Just that we do not need to pamper them.
Besides which they are not even covered by the Geneva Convention. They were not in uniform when captured. They are what would normally be called spies and a military execution is allow by the rules of war.
From: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#11]
7 Oct 2006
To: Sei (SEIMA) [#9] 7 Oct 2006
Sei,
You and I are on the same page.
Dee
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#12]
7 Oct 2006
To: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#10] 8 Oct 2006
The majority of them were captured in battle. That doesn't make them spies. It makes them prisoners of war.
By your definition, if we fight a battle against a group of soldiers that do not own uniforms, it is OK to line all the losers up against a wall and shoot them in the head at the end of the battle. Sorry, I do not agree.
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#13]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
If we tolerate that then what are we.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#14]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
We are fighting a war the likes of which we have never seen before.
History is our best teacher.....
The choice to appease rogue countries like Iran and the extreemists like them are in line with the choices that were made with Nazi Germany prior to WW2. Those were bad choices. They gave Hitler the message that there would be little or no resistance and it allowed him to buy time to build his army....the likes of which was very close to winning the war. Sadaam played a similar game of buying time over and over and over until we finaly said enough playing around, and went in after him.
There have been several instances where it has been proven that the US running when attacked only creates more bold attacks. One of the first of these was Blackhawk Down. Each time we ignored the attacks instead of backing up our words with actions, we lost credibility, and the next attack was bigger and bolder up until the biggest of 9/11.
Never forget 9/11 and what you saw in all those innocent deaths. It was the enemy's moment of triumph, and a moment that our eyes were opened to a brand new dangerous world. A world that has extremists that hate us, hate Isreal, and would like to see us both gone. To these people it's their way, or be killed. No matter if it's women children or men. They take no pity, and never consider the Geneva convension when cutting off the heads of known civilians. Watch the tape....remember the barbarians you are looking at.
What we have done over there requires actions that are humane, yet different than anything that we have done in the past. The fact is that the enemy combatants have been cared for and treated well. In War, prisoners of war under the geneva convension are detained until the war is over...not given a trial and released.......giving the prisoners the same timeline that the enemy combatants have right now. None.
Some people will argue that our actions are giving the enemy propaganda to grow their members ....but I must say that if we don't stand up for ourselves and the Iraqi and Afgan people that want a free country, we have just let a whole country down, and given the enemy a huge victory. A victory we cannot afford to let them have.
Yes our soldiers are dying and should only do so for a valiant cause. I believe that our national security, and freedom for the people of the countries of Afganistan and Iraq qualify as a valiant cause.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
7 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#14] 8 Oct 2006
I've been thinking about Harvey's words:
The British lost the Revolutionary War because they refused to abandon the square and fight like we did.
Let's review:
1) The British strategy, against non-traditional combatants, didn't work in the 1700's.
2) Our strategy in Vietnam, against non-traditional combatants, didn't work in the 60's and 70's.
How can the same failed strategies, against non-traditional combatants, work now?
The "experts" are now conceding that the war in Iraq can't be won militarily.
While it's doubtful that the people of an engravers forum will be able to determine a way out of this mess, what's more discouraging, is the realization that the people who got us into it, seem equally incapable of a solution.
From: UncleSteve [#16]
7 Oct 2006
To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#11] 8 Oct 2006
And that page is getting a bit dog-eared from this point of view...
BTW, I have NEVER seen Dee and Cindy Sheehan in the same room at the same time.... (devil)
As I said before, the LEGAL way under the Geneva Convention is to just
SHOOT THEM!
EDITED: 7 Oct 2006 by UNCLESTEVE
From: UncleSteve [#17]
8 Oct 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#12] 8 Oct 2006
Not at the end of the battle, DURING the battle!
What most refuse to recognize and accept is that what is going on in Iraq is NOT a war to free the innocents in the country anymore. It is a religious jihad with the different Islamic factions trying to eliminate each other and take over the country when all settles down, if it ever does. This internal battle of theirs has been going on for hundreds of years and will not end in any of our lifetimes.
jihad: Definition and Much More From Answers.com
jihad also jehad ( ) n. Islam. An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection. Islam. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18]
8 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15] 8 Oct 2006
I've not seen this concession other than by some suspect opinions expressed in the liberal media.......
The vietnam war was lost because we handstrapped the powers that be..... with fighting not to lose, instead of letting them fight to win.
I'm guessing England decided that the "new world" wasn't worth the lossees that they were incurring....(familiar song I guess) only I'm quite sure it was far more losses than we have sufferen in Iraq.
Just because it's difficult, it's not worth the effort? That certainly isn't the American way.
I know in your continued pacifism that you would be happy to leave the region and allow the extreemists to strengthen their resolve....Imagine what doing this with Hitler or Japan would have done back in World war 2.........Put Iran in Germany or Japan's place and reconsider your position.
I strongly believe that if we don't continue on and finish what we started by supporting the Iraqi and Afganistan people, that we have failed and lost a battle that might just decide the overall war.
It's true that this administration has made many mistakes....so did Patton......so did many others in war. That's no excuse to throw in the towel because we don't have the wearwithall to win.
The cold war wasn't won overnight...had we thrown in the towel...... Russia would be a superpower and we wouldn't. It's a huge responsibility to be a super power. Cutting and running leaves our allies hanging....so does all the dissension based on emotion instead of the facts at hand. We have a job to do, let's get behind it and get it done. We don't need another Vietnam. Let them win the war instead of henpecking every thing you can find because you don't like the administration.
The politicization of this war is what is creating all the dissension. Get off your liberal high horse and let them finish what needs to be done. The liberal side has shown no spine, and offered no way through the war. Their only idea is to criticize everything about the conservative way of running the war, giving the enemy combatant more reason to keep fighting.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 8 Oct 2006
Brian,
This is truly a historic topic. You, David, my wife, and I are on the same page in agreement.
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#20]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 8 Oct 2006
Brian,
I tend to disagree with a lot of stuff you say on this forum (opinion-based things). However, I find our minds to be in lock-step here.
It seems that many people here are willing to fight (in court) for these terrorists' right to kill us. Their outcry seems to be "If it makes these poor, misunderstood middle-easterners happy to destroy America, then it's their right to do so. Who are we to say that they're wrong?"
To those of you who believe that way, I invite you to start learning to speak Iraqi....that attitude will have us all speaking it eventually. Oh wait...no it won't...they'll kill us all for not being MUSLIM.
You must keep in mind that they DO NOT think like you do. They aren't all wishy-washy about "right" and "wrong". There's nothing "relative" about what they believe. To them, you are either MUSLIM, or you must die. Period. End of discussion. There's no second place trophy here, folks. Pick a side, and get down off your lilly white fence.
I'm done.
Cody
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