Full Version: America's Future
From: Mike (MIKEN) [#13]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
If we tolerate that then what are we.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#14]
7 Oct 2006
To: ALL
We are fighting a war the likes of which we have never seen before.
History is our best teacher.....
The choice to appease rogue countries like Iran and the extreemists like them are in line with the choices that were made with Nazi Germany prior to WW2. Those were bad choices. They gave Hitler the message that there would be little or no resistance and it allowed him to buy time to build his army....the likes of which was very close to winning the war. Sadaam played a similar game of buying time over and over and over until we finaly said enough playing around, and went in after him.
There have been several instances where it has been proven that the US running when attacked only creates more bold attacks. One of the first of these was Blackhawk Down. Each time we ignored the attacks instead of backing up our words with actions, we lost credibility, and the next attack was bigger and bolder up until the biggest of 9/11.
Never forget 9/11 and what you saw in all those innocent deaths. It was the enemy's moment of triumph, and a moment that our eyes were opened to a brand new dangerous world. A world that has extremists that hate us, hate Isreal, and would like to see us both gone. To these people it's their way, or be killed. No matter if it's women children or men. They take no pity, and never consider the Geneva convension when cutting off the heads of known civilians. Watch the tape....remember the barbarians you are looking at.
What we have done over there requires actions that are humane, yet different than anything that we have done in the past. The fact is that the enemy combatants have been cared for and treated well. In War, prisoners of war under the geneva convension are detained until the war is over...not given a trial and released.......giving the prisoners the same timeline that the enemy combatants have right now. None.
Some people will argue that our actions are giving the enemy propaganda to grow their members ....but I must say that if we don't stand up for ourselves and the Iraqi and Afgan people that want a free country, we have just let a whole country down, and given the enemy a huge victory. A victory we cannot afford to let them have.
Yes our soldiers are dying and should only do so for a valiant cause. I believe that our national security, and freedom for the people of the countries of Afganistan and Iraq qualify as a valiant cause.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15]
7 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#14] 8 Oct 2006
I've been thinking about Harvey's words:
The British lost the Revolutionary War because they refused to abandon the square and fight like we did.
Let's review:
1) The British strategy, against non-traditional combatants, didn't work in the 1700's.
2) Our strategy in Vietnam, against non-traditional combatants, didn't work in the 60's and 70's.
How can the same failed strategies, against non-traditional combatants, work now?
The "experts" are now conceding that the war in Iraq can't be won militarily.
While it's doubtful that the people of an engravers forum will be able to determine a way out of this mess, what's more discouraging, is the realization that the people who got us into it, seem equally incapable of a solution.
From: UncleSteve [#16]
7 Oct 2006
To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#11] 8 Oct 2006
And that page is getting a bit dog-eared from this point of view...
BTW, I have NEVER seen Dee and Cindy Sheehan in the same room at the same time.... (devil)
As I said before, the LEGAL way under the Geneva Convention is to just
SHOOT THEM!
EDITED: 7 Oct 2006 by UNCLESTEVE
From: UncleSteve [#17]
8 Oct 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#12] 8 Oct 2006
Not at the end of the battle, DURING the battle!
What most refuse to recognize and accept is that what is going on in Iraq is NOT a war to free the innocents in the country anymore. It is a religious jihad with the different Islamic factions trying to eliminate each other and take over the country when all settles down, if it ever does. This internal battle of theirs has been going on for hundreds of years and will not end in any of our lifetimes.
jihad: Definition and Much More From Answers.com
jihad also jehad ( ) n. Islam. An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection. Islam. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18]
8 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#15] 8 Oct 2006
I've not seen this concession other than by some suspect opinions expressed in the liberal media.......
The vietnam war was lost because we handstrapped the powers that be..... with fighting not to lose, instead of letting them fight to win.
I'm guessing England decided that the "new world" wasn't worth the lossees that they were incurring....(familiar song I guess) only I'm quite sure it was far more losses than we have sufferen in Iraq.
Just because it's difficult, it's not worth the effort? That certainly isn't the American way.
I know in your continued pacifism that you would be happy to leave the region and allow the extreemists to strengthen their resolve....Imagine what doing this with Hitler or Japan would have done back in World war 2.........Put Iran in Germany or Japan's place and reconsider your position.
I strongly believe that if we don't continue on and finish what we started by supporting the Iraqi and Afganistan people, that we have failed and lost a battle that might just decide the overall war.
It's true that this administration has made many mistakes....so did Patton......so did many others in war. That's no excuse to throw in the towel because we don't have the wearwithall to win.
The cold war wasn't won overnight...had we thrown in the towel...... Russia would be a superpower and we wouldn't. It's a huge responsibility to be a super power. Cutting and running leaves our allies hanging....so does all the dissension based on emotion instead of the facts at hand. We have a job to do, let's get behind it and get it done. We don't need another Vietnam. Let them win the war instead of henpecking every thing you can find because you don't like the administration.
The politicization of this war is what is creating all the dissension. Get off your liberal high horse and let them finish what needs to be done. The liberal side has shown no spine, and offered no way through the war. Their only idea is to criticize everything about the conservative way of running the war, giving the enemy combatant more reason to keep fighting.
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#19]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 8 Oct 2006
Brian,
This is truly a historic topic. You, David, my wife, and I are on the same page in agreement.
From: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#20]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 8 Oct 2006
Brian,
I tend to disagree with a lot of stuff you say on this forum (opinion-based things). However, I find our minds to be in lock-step here.
It seems that many people here are willing to fight (in court) for these terrorists' right to kill us. Their outcry seems to be "If it makes these poor, misunderstood middle-easterners happy to destroy America, then it's their right to do so. Who are we to say that they're wrong?"
To those of you who believe that way, I invite you to start learning to speak Iraqi....that attitude will have us all speaking it eventually. Oh wait...no it won't...they'll kill us all for not being MUSLIM.
You must keep in mind that they DO NOT think like you do. They aren't all wishy-washy about "right" and "wrong". There's nothing "relative" about what they believe. To them, you are either MUSLIM, or you must die. Period. End of discussion. There's no second place trophy here, folks. Pick a side, and get down off your lilly white fence.
I'm done.
Cody
From: Dave (MT_DAVE) [#21]
8 Oct 2006
To: ALL
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#22]
8 Oct 2006
To: Cody (BOBTNAILER) [#20] 8 Oct 2006
I understand...
I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time, but it is nice hearing when someone does find common ground with your opinions....
I was surprised how unified my position was with Harvey on the prisoner situation.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#18] 8 Oct 2006
Brian,
John Warner (R), formerly a proponent of "stay the course", who just returned from Iraq, says the war has "gone sideways" and if we can't reach some solid conclusions within three months, we need a serious change of direction and all options are on the table.
Former Secretary of State, Jim Baker (R) when asked why we didn't take Iraq, in 1991, when we had the chance, predicted (at the time) that if we had, we'd be exactly where we are now. Instead of fighting terrorists, we'd be playing referee in a civil war.
Regardless of their political parties, Generals, once upbeat about the progress of the war, are now on the verge of depression.
Those aren't opinions of the liberal media.
To do that, would require that we put all combatants in military uniforms, thereby, identifiable as the enemy.
I don't subscribe to partisan politics. That stands in the way of making any substantial progress, on any number of issues. It's crippled our country.
What "needs to be done" is entirely up in the air. If there were a clear course, most people (regardless of political affiliation) would be behind that course.
EDITED: 8 Oct 2006 by DGL
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#24]
8 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#23] 8 Oct 2006
My personal opinion is that we should let the military people put in office by the elected leadership choose the course of action, instead of playing armchair general. For every negative view of the iraqi war there are positive occurances available.
I don't necessarily dissagree with John Warner, and agree that we need an updated aproach to what is going on, it's called "adjusting to conditions", and I'm quite sure that our military is capable of doing what it takes to do that.
Your taking a prediction from 1991 as a current statement? James Bakers prediction may still happen, but at this point civil war is possible, but not there yet. hopefully it will not occur.
Generals, once upbeat about the progress of the war, are now on the verge of depression? I suspect you are talking about Generals that aren't in the warroom any longer.........All of which have their own ambitions at this point. When you saying that they are "on the verge of depression" are you saying that you have your hand on the pulse of their emotions? I highly doubt it. I wasn't aware of any ex generals that you hung around with closely enough to get into their heads.
You missed my point about putting Iran into Germany or japan's place. If you ingnore history, and continue to appease people that threaten us (like Iran) you may as well let Iran use those nukes that they are working toward to wipe Isreal off the face of the earth. I suppose that will somehow be the Bush's fault too......Ignore all the appeasement that occured through democratic years before 9/11, and the lesson's that we learned from it, so we can just be attacked again, and again due to our pacifism.
What needs to be done is absolutely not up in the air.....What needs to be done is that we need to win. We need to leave that job to the people that get paid to do it, and support them and the troops that put themselves in harms way protecting our country. By winning we will silence these independant groups as well as the Iran's of the world that want to sneer in our faces and decry that the Holocost never happened.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#24] 8 Oct 2006
Baker's prediction has come to pass. Not full-blown, (yet) but a civil war is in progress, nonetheless.
The comment on depressed Generals somes from journalists who cover the Pentagon. Their optimistic assessments are gone.
Do tell.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#26]
8 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 8 Oct 2006
From what publication?
The potential for a civil war has been there from the beginning.....What do you think would have happened if the failed overthrow of Sadaam would have been successful?
All I have heard about the potential of civil war is that there has been some sectarian violence. I'm not sure what the scale is, but if it was large scale you can be sure the media would be squaking about it as it would make the administration look bad.....(their main goal).
Regarding Good things that happen in Iraq....My version of what is happening in Iraq is from an Uncle that fought in Vietnam, and then volunteered last year to go fight in Iraq. He returned this last summer, and expressed that they were really helping the Iraqi people learn to fight for themselves, but that it would be a long road.
The military just wants to win the battle and come home....Not have decisions be mired down because people want to play partasin politicswith this war. Let em win instead of second guessing everything thats going on. They have their job's because they are good at what they do. You need to have faith in the Generals and people that run the war, not the reporters or the polititians. as mired down as things seem, it's still important that we stay the course and win the war.
People can report whatever they want to to get attention....That's what selling media is all about.....
So I have suggested that we stay the course....let the professionals do their jobs that they get paid for, and win the war. Defining "win" may be difficult over the long haul, but anything that ends in free people with the ability to make their own decisions will be a success in my opinion. The choices they make with their freedom are up to them and will have their own concequences, just like Lebanon......
You have offered nothing but complaints and negativity about what's happening....What are your suggestions for solutions to the Iraq/Afganistan/Middle East problems of our day?
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#27]
8 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#25] 8 Oct 2006
From: UncleSteve [#28]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#22] 8 Oct 2006
From: Harvey only (HARVEY-ONLY) [#29]
8 Oct 2006
To: Dave (MT_DAVE) [#21] 8 Oct 2006
And what does that have to do with non-uniformed combatants being held prisoner. The Constitution does not cover that, but the international rules of war do.
New situation that this is, those rules are still holding for us, but not for the other side. That should be considered high moral ground.
Letting a non-uniformed killer of our troops free, (aside from their holy war claim), is just plain stupid. You think he will not go out and start killing again? You must truly understand the enemy to make good decisions. He is totally convinced that to be true to God he must kill as many of us as possible. You will not change his mind, it is his religious devotion.
From: LG (WAIIB) [#30]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#27] 8 Oct 2006
From: Franklin (FW_HAYNES) [#31]
8 Oct 2006
To: ALL
I have friends and family in politics and military and I get information that alot of Americans don't and it sickens me as to how low we have gotten and NO it did not start when Bush came into office. If we keep going in the direction that we are, we will be a socialist country within a couple of decades.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#32]
8 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#26] 8 Oct 2006
The journalists have been Washington correspondents who cover the Pentagon.
I can't remember their names and have no way of knowing if they have "D" or "R" associated with their names.
I've simply been commenting on the reality of the situation.
A bi-partisan commission is being assigned the task of offering their assessment and suggestions for a solution.
Like you, I'll wait to see what the "professionals" suggest.
Don't expect any suggestions before Nov. 7.
I haven't forgotten about Iran, but with our military stretched to its limits and our budget deficit at historic levels, with no end in sight, we're playing into the terrorists hands.
They'll bankrupt us.
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