Full Version: America's Future
From: jumbo (JIMCLOUGH) [#41]
8 Oct 2006
To: ALL
As I see it, the idea of invading Afghanistan was to get rid of the Taliban, yet remember the fuss when the Russians invaded Afghanistan to stop the Taliban from taking over in the first place.
Jim
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#42]
8 Oct 2006
To: Jim (RETAIL74) [#37] 9 Oct 2006
I think that the focus is still on freeing the poeple of iraq, and giving them the opportunity to lead themselves....but it's hard to take an oppressed population and put the load on their backs....with all the insurgents and forign fighters that have come into the theater to support them....The common Iraqi has a pretty dangerous existance right now....particularly in the hot spots such as Bagdad.
So to follow up....yes on all your points. One led to the other. War's are fluid. The reasons can change as conditions change.
I'm not sure we would be where we are with someone else in the white house. But I felt that he had done the right thing then.....and I feel that you have to overcome not cut and run. Cutting and running will teach other enemies of our country that we are cream puffs and don't have the will to succeed when the going gets tough. It will also let the Iraqi people down........With all they have been through...... they certainly deserve a chance to succeed.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#43]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#38] 9 Oct 2006
North Korea is another perfect example of where appeasment and pacifism gets you. It's where Iran is headed.......Every agreement we have had with North Korea has been ignored over time....Now we have a new game to play in that part of the world....A much more dangerous game because China (our allie) wouldn't use the power that they had to stop them........The future will probably include a nuclear Japan that will most likely change their constitution so that they can arm themselves for defense.
Gee looking back, I guess George was pretty smart about Syria, North Korea, and Iran when he called them the Axis of Evil....Funny no one has given him any credit for forseeing the future with these rogue nations, yet their actions have gone unchecked by the rest of the world while we deal with the mess that we are in.
I agree with Uncle Steve here....I think that the state of the world has changed substantially over the last two decades. Jihadists are the enemy, and they are all over the globe.....I'm not suggesting that N. Korea is harboring Jihadists, but they are clearly taking the opportunity because the rest of the world is continualy appeasing them and Iran. For an example, look at how the United Nations acted toward Isreal when they decided to fight to protect themselves from rockets raining from the sky....They went after Isreal but said little about the Hamas (which happens to be part of the government of Lebanon) that started it all in the first place. Some people think that Isreal over responded.....but if your not fighting to win.....your fighting to lose......They had every right to fight back the way they did, and probably should have gone further. Political correctness on a global scale made them stop.
Every concession that Isreal has given over the years has won them more Terrorist attacks, suffering and losses. Another example of what appeasment to jihadists gives you.....
What we needed when we entered this war was some global support from France, Germany, and China. Their lack of support after giving us a green light to enter Iraq then reacting with shock after we started an invasion has given rogue nations, terrorists, and insurgents reason to rally, and continue to test to see what the world reaction will be whenever they misbehave. Right now, I see the rest of the world where the left wing liberals are.....Giddy to see us mired down because it supposedly proves GWB, and the mighty USA wrong.
It's human nature...people like to see the little guy win, and the big dog taken down a notch.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#44]
9 Oct 2006
To: Dee (DEENA-ONLY) [#39] 9 Oct 2006
From: UncleSteve [#45]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#42] 9 Oct 2006
1. Iraq was in violation of 17 orders from the UN (a toothless dog in this fight).
2. Almost all countries believed there WERE wmd's
3. Inspectors were NOT allowed free reign to inspect the facilites
4. WMD's WERE found after the invasion.... just old ones (early 90's) that may not have been usable.... but no one knows if Saddam was aware of that.
5. Large trucks were observed leaving Iraq for Syria or Saudi Arabia (forget which) just prior to going into Iraq.
6. The Kurds were attacked with wmd's in the not too distant past
7. Many of the "freedom fighters" are NOT Iraqis but invaders from bordering countries.
8. The religious war within Iraq has been going on for centuries and nothing we or anyone else can do will end such fanaticism.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#46]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#44] 9 Oct 2006
Well...maybe...assuming there will be following generations.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#47]
9 Oct 2006
To: UncleSteve [#45] 9 Oct 2006
Exactly...but that won't keep us from pouring money and lives into a bucket with a hole at the bottom.
From: oldtimer (BRUCE) [#48]
9 Oct 2006
To: ALL
After all is said and done, and you and I are the only ones left alive, I will, after time, most certainly find something I don't like about you! This is the way things are. Nothing will ever change. In the interim we are to be productive societal members abiding to the rules .......
Bruce
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#49]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#47] 9 Oct 2006
From: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#50]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#49] 9 Oct 2006
How about this: For centuries, before the British took over after WWI, what is known as Iraq was actually 3 seperate provinces of the Ottoman Empire. They were pretty much divided along religious lines. The north which is primarily sunni kurd (governed in Mosul), the middle which is mostly sunni arab (governed in Baghdad), and the southwest which is mostly shia arab (governed in Basrah).
So how about divide it back up into 3 countries. Roughly along the religious ethnic lines that are fighting each other. Let them each have their own government and their own country.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#51]
9 Oct 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#50] 9 Oct 2006
Oddly enough, that's one of the suggestions being bandied about.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#52]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#49] 9 Oct 2006
Putting blind faith in a failed strategy and the people who brought it forth, isn't one of them.
This country won't stand for a "long haul."
$300 billion would have been better-spent in technology for port security etc.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#53]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#52] 9 Oct 2006
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#54]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#53] 9 Oct 2006
My suggestion would have been not to invade Iraq.
Now, as with everyone else, including those in charge, the situation is has become so complex and so out-of-hand, that there's no clear way out.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#55]
9 Oct 2006
To: Dave Jones (DAVERJ) [#50] 9 Oct 2006
That might be doable......I'm sure if it was a logical option for the factions, that it would be considered by the current powers that be.........
Not sure how it would shake out but it sure would be worth a look....
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#56]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#54] 9 Oct 2006
Hindsite is always 20/20 ...................... We need a suggestion to get from where we are .............to success.
Whining about how we got here solves nothing.
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#57]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#54] 9 Oct 2006
Saying that there is no way out is just a cop out, there's always a way out, good bad or indifferent. Crying and stomping your feet saying that it's "impossible" never solved any problems. What if our Generals and Military Leaders acted like that?????
For as stubborn as you are, you sure give up easily.
From: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#58]
9 Oct 2006
To: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#56] 9 Oct 2006
Brian,
My suggestion wasn't made in hindsight. Many people, including myself, felt that way at the time.
It was very clear, no matter what, Bush was hell-bent on taking us into Iraq.
Bad idea at the time, which only seems much worse in hindsight.
I didn't say there's no way out; just no clear way out.
EDITED: 9 Oct 2006 by DGL
From: RALLYGUY (RALLYGUY1) [#59]
9 Oct 2006
To: Stunt Engraver (DGL) [#58] 9 Oct 2006
Your suggestion wasn't a suggestion at all. It was a criticism, with a defeatist tone once again blaming Bush.
If you want to play the blame game....How about blaming Clinton for doing nothing when attacked by Terrorists abroad....giving other nations the illusion that we were a paper tiger?
How about blaming sadaam for invading Kuwait prior to the first gulf war, then ignoring our inspection requirements, repeatedly not letting the inspectors in, and playing the game of chicken (with the paper tiger).
Personally I think that things could have gone much better with Iraq. I think we failed to get enough boots on the ground to protect the weapons cashes, and quell the insurgency....I believe that helped the insurgents get materials for the road side bombings of the future.....But mistakes are made in war all the time....Just ask Custer. Yes this means that we will be there a while....Just like we were in Korea, Germany, and Japan, but it doesn't mean that things are hopeless.
From: Rob (AWARDZZ) [#60]
9 Oct 2006
To: ALL
So are we in agreement that there are certain religious extremists who desire nothing more than the complete death and destruction of the West..
Do we also agree that these wack jobs are now and have been instilling their young that we are Satan, bad and must be destroyed.
Do we also see that a certain Iranian leader has called for Israel and her friends to be "wiped off the face of the earth"... this same person is hell bent on developing his own nuclear bomb.
Collectively we understand that these wack jobs look forward to Armageddon, because in their believe that is when they finally win and according to their "bible" , their God comes back.
We can not sit down and discuss or talk with these people...they have no respect for their own life (strapping bombs on their own children is normal??) for them to burn our own military personnel bodies , dragging through towns is normal ??? yet a political cartoon harpooning them results in the killing of an innocent nun....thats normal??? they demand apologizes for anything that they do not like and we wilt under their demands??? Yet there are individuals in our own country who still want us to sit down and chat...... wake up folks....hate to say it....it's not just a slap fest or a battleship game.... they want us gone... I can't believe how fast we forget what happened on 9-11.... they are serious and are totally committed to executing their plans which is the execution of all that are not fanatical Moslem enough for them.
I'm not a doom and gloom,,, I am a very concerned citizen that sees only one option,,, take them out, before they take us out.
Rob
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